starsaw Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 California dont count......that place will be half the size some day due to earthquakes, so why make cali a class state, when they are gonna half to go back to a 1 class state someday soon anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I wouldn't call wrestling unsuccessful in non-traditional wrestling states like Florida, North Carolina or even in states like Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, etc. Just because they don't bring home 20 AA's at Fargo doesn't mean they aren't successful. Just because you or I don't deem them better than Indiana, doesn't mean they aren't successful. States like Kansas, Missouri, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, and Nebraska are all better than us in wrestling and very close to us in population and distance. I surely wouldn't consider those state weak wrestling states. Guess what, they all have class wrestling. Is it ironic? I think not. There are only three states that surround us that I would consider us better than, Kentucky, Tennessee, and West Virginia. Every other state that is one state or two states away is better than us. Maybe we should strive to be more like our southern neighbor in Kentucky because they are simply doing splendid with a one class system. Maybe we could be like Kentucky, Delaware, Hawaii, Vermont or Mississippi, since they all have one class systems. They obviously are kicking butt with that one class system aren't they? What is deemed successful is going to be shaped by the point of view, so there's no reason to argue this. I'm going to say Indiana is in the 15-20 range as far as state ranking, would you agree? So what's the difference between the class systems between the states we're better than and the states we're worse than? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 1st. There is a point to argue this. 2nd. what do you mean by "successful" and how does it relate to your determined ranking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 What is deemed successful is going to be shaped by the point of view, so there's no reason to argue this. I'm going to say Indiana is in the 15-20 range as far as state ranking, would you agree? So what's the difference between the class systems between the states we're better than and the states we're worse than? Shouldn't we be considerably better than Oregon with twice the population? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Are we considerably better than Oregon? What are they up to now, 8 or 9 classes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 1st. There is a point to argue this. 2nd. what do you mean by "successful" and how does it relate to your determined ranking. The way I judge my rankings is thru how each state does at Fargo. I feel that is the best way at determing each state's strength since that's the biggest high school national tournament. Although I'll admit that it's not an exact science, more ballparked. From the past 5 years at Fargo, Indiana has accrued the 11th highest AA's points in the Junior division. So I say 15-20th ranked, more as a worst-case scenario than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Shouldn't we be considerably better than Oregon with twice the population? I don't know, are we? I use the Fargo results more as a guideline than an exact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 thats not good enough for me, just as we don't send our best to Fargo all the time means that other states don't send there best, its not an accurate judge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Are we considerably better than Oregon? What are they up to now, 8 or 9 classes? Not according to wcs' data. More fans, increased interest, better performance at Fargo all seem like positive outcomes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 thats not good enough for me, just as we don't send our best to Fargo all the time means that other states don't send there best, its not an accurate judge The only true way to determine state strength is that every state sends their top 8 to a tournament and see what happens. Otherwise, it's going to be an educate guess. You give me a better alternative, I'll be more than happy to listen to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Shouldn't we be considerably better than Oregon with twice the population? I don't know, are we? I use the Fargo results more as a guideline than an exact. In one post you say Fargo is the best way to determine a state's strength and in the next you say it's just a guideline? Are you trying to have it both ways? Oregon has half the poplulation...yet out performs us at Fargo. Is this due to class wrestling entirely. I doubt it. Has class wrestling increased the interest in the sport in that state. I think it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 There in lies the problem, we cant gauge states saying ones successful or not. I think what this whole argument comes down to is what the purpose of class wrestling is. To me the purpose of it is to give more kids a shot to go out and experience something, to get them a chance to say I went and wrestled at Conseco Field House. I also think that it would help give those typical SS Q and regional Q to get some college spotlight, thus maybe allowing them to be seen by a school like north central, coe, dana or any of the number of smaller yet very successful programs, thus maybe getting some of the load of the $$$ to attend a school, which will get them a degree, which will give them a career. Sure you lose the mystique of being the one class champion but you are allowing many kids to gain opportunities they may have missed out on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 wc is just using data to best fit his argument, much like you classies do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 and his data is flawed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Shouldn't we be considerably better than Oregon with twice the population? I don't know, are we? I use the Fargo results more as a guideline than an exact. In one post you say Fargo is the best way to determine a state's strength and in the next you say it's just a guideline? Are you trying to have it both ways? Oregon has half the poplulation...yet out performs us at Fargo. Is this due to class wrestling entirely. I doubt it. Has class wrestling increased the interest in the sport in that state. I think it has. It sound about the same as the both way conversation being had over states with Class wrestling. On one hand it is being argued: Look at the top wrestling state around us they have class wrestling they are very sucessful and preform well at national events so why shouldn't we have class wrestling. Then when someone makes the argument to look at all the other class wrestling state that are not consistently improving the argment is made that: Well it all in how you look at it in those state. So which is it for that argument? If the state that out prefom us are a good example of why we should go to class wrestling. Then are the state that underpreform compared to us a good or a bad example of why we should go to class wrestling in comparison to that. The way I see it that argument either works both ways or don't use it as a vaild argument at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 In one post you say Fargo is the best way to determine a state's strength and in the next you say it's just a guideline? Are you trying to have it both ways? Oregon has half the poplulation...yet out performs us at Fargo. Is this due to class wrestling entirely. I doubt it. Has class wrestling increased the interest in the sport in that state. I think it has. I don't see how it's having it both ways. There's no true way of determing a state's strength to an exact science, just that I feel Fargo is the best way with what can be done realistically. Looking at the rankings, I'd say it does a good job of ballparking. Like the top 5 in order are Iowa - New Jersey - Pennsylvania - Illinois - Ohio. Are they exactly in that order? Probably not. But I'd say they are the top 5 wrestling states though. Oregon has half the poplulation...yet out performs us at Fargo. Is this due to class wrestling entirely. I doubt it. Has class wrestling increased the interest in the sport in that state. I think it has. Is there increased interest in that state because of class wrestling or because the tournament size has doubled (or whatever it was)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 and his data is flawed What's the flaw in the data? I was posting AA points accrued by each state for the past 5 years, nothing more nothing less. I just happened to believe it correlates with state strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oregon has half the poplulation...yet out performs us at Fargo. Is this due to class wrestling entirely. I doubt it. Has class wrestling increased the interest in the sport in that state. I think it has. Is there increased interest in that state because of class wrestling or because the tournament size has doubled (or whatever it was)? they are one and the same the doubled size of the tournament is due to class wrestling thus you are stating the interest HAS increased due to classes and his data is flawed What's the flaw in the data? I was posting AA points accrued by each state for the past 5 years, nothing more nothing less. I just happened to believe it correlates with state strength. thats not good enough for me, just as we don't send our best to Fargo all the time means that other states don't send there best, its not an accurate judge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 In one post you say Fargo is the best way to determine a state's strength and in the next you say it's just a guideline? Are you trying to have it both ways? Oregon has half the poplulation...yet out performs us at Fargo. Is this due to class wrestling entirely. I doubt it. Has class wrestling increased the interest in the sport in that state. I think it has. I don't see how it's having it both ways. There's no true way of determing a state's strength to an exact science, just that I feel Fargo is the best way with what can be done realistically. Looking at the rankings, I'd say it does a good job of ballparking. Like the top 5 in order are Iowa - New Jersey - Pennsylvania - Illinois - Ohio. Are they exactly in that order? Probably not. But I'd say they are the top 5 wrestling states though. Oregon has half the poplulation...yet out performs us at Fargo. Is this due to class wrestling entirely. I doubt it. Has class wrestling increased the interest in the sport in that state. I think it has. Is there increased interest in that state because of class wrestling or because the tournament size has doubled (or whatever it was)? Your backpedaling now. You said it was the best measure of a states strength. I have used your data to show you a classed state with half the population, probably less wrestling tradition, probably fewer off season opportunities to improve, that is a better then us using YOUR standard measurement of strength. They have 5 classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oregon going from class wrestling has done quite a few things for the sport there. It almost doubled the attendance at their state finals, good for their state association and good for the exposure of the sport. Agree or disagree? The state has also seen an increase of the number of programs within the state and that is good for the sport. Agree or disagree? The state has seen an increase in the number of participants in the sport and that is good for the sport. Agree or disagree? The state has seen an increased interest in the regular season meets, which probably boosts the attendance numbers at meets during the regular season and that is good for the sport. Agree or disagree? Those are four areas that class wrestling has helped the state of Oregon and its wrestling. If you disagree with any of those statements, please tell me. If class wrestling would do two of those things for Indiana wrestling, then I would say it should happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oregon going from class wrestling has done quite a few things for the sport there. It almost doubled the attendance at their state finals, good for their state association and good for the exposure of the sport. Agree or disagree? The state has also seen an increase of the number of programs within the state and that is good for the sport. Agree or disagree? The state has seen an increase in the number of participants in the sport and that is good for the sport. Agree or disagree? The state has seen an increased interest in the regular season meets, which probably boosts the attendance numbers at meets during the regular season and that is good for the sport. Agree or disagree? Those are four areas that class wrestling has helped the state of Oregon and its wrestling. If you disagree with any of those statements, please tell me. If class wrestling would do two of those things for Indiana wrestling, then I would say it should happen. Would classing the team tournament and not the individual tournament be able to accomplish at least 3 of these (more participants, programs, and interest in regular season meets)? It probably wouldn't lead to a doubling of the attendance at the state finals. But that could possibly be accomplished by adding more individual qualifiers to a single class individual tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 they are one and the same the doubled size of the tournament is due to class wrestling thus you are stating the interest HAS increased due to classes They are not one and the same though. You can take out the classed part, keep the tournament size, and have the same increased interest level. thats not good enough for me, just as we don't send our best to Fargo all the time means that other states don't send there best, its not an accurate judge What's not good enough for you, what are you trying to prove? If you're giving me you're opinion on that you don't think Fargo is an accurate gauge for state strength, then fine that's your opinion. But don't patronize me and say my data is flawed when it's 100% fact. Over the last 5 years at Fargo, Indiana has had 21 All-Americans, 1 Champion, and 76 AA points. This CAN NOT be disproven, it happened. Like I said, if you don't think it depicts actual state strength, that's your opinion. Just don't say my data is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 just as we don't send our best to Fargo all the time means that other states don't send there best, its not an accurate judge Fact or opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oregon going from class wrestling has done quite a few things for the sport there. It almost doubled the attendance at their state finals, good for their state association and good for the exposure of the sport. Agree or disagree? The state has also seen an increase of the number of programs within the state and that is good for the sport. Agree or disagree? The state has seen an increase in the number of participants in the sport and that is good for the sport. Agree or disagree? The state has seen an increased interest in the regular season meets, which probably boosts the attendance numbers at meets during the regular season and that is good for the sport. Agree or disagree? Those are four areas that class wrestling has helped the state of Oregon and its wrestling. If you disagree with any of those statements, please tell me. If class wrestling would do two of those things for Indiana wrestling, then I would say it should happen. Would classing the team tournament and not the individual tournament be able to accomplish at least 3 of these (more participants, programs, and interest in regular season meets)? It probably wouldn't lead to a doubling of the attendance at the state finals. But that could possibly be accomplished by adding more individual qualifiers to a single class individual tournament. It wouldn't have the affect that it would if you did both. You wouldn't see much increase in interest in regular season meets because you don't see many of the big schools wrestling smaller schools in duals or tournaments. Usually the big schools stick with wrestling big schools and the same for small schools. The increased fan interest is for the individual matchups such as seeing a 1A champion against the 3A champion. With classed individual state you will have more returning placers and champions that will have a greater chance of meeting up in the regular season, thus increasing the interest in those matches. I remember just this season the local TV station came to one of our meets because two ranked wrestlers were wrestling. That match highlights were the only one shown on TV. If you have more big matches like that going on, people will be more interested in coming to the meets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Over the last 5 years at Fargo, Indiana has had 21 All-Americans, 1 Champion, and 76 AA points. Fact or Opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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