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Rankings 2010

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As the 2010 high school wrestling season is fast approaching, I am already hard at work updating the rankings with incoming freshman, taking off the graduated seniors, updating previous state finals experience, etc.  As we at IndianaMat.com are already getting excited about the future of the site as it grows in the 2010 season, I was recently looking over my calendar from last season and noticed that I was putting in an average of around 20 hours a week sifting through results from tournaments across the state for 12 weeks during last season.  That comes out to roughly 240 hours over the course of the season, and as a courtesy to Y2, I did them on a completely volunteer basis in 2009.  In order to be able to offer this same high quality of rankings this season, the same amount of time is going to need to be allotted.  Although I enjoy doing the rankings and making them as accurate as possible, when you start putting in that kind of time, it starts to become a chore.  By no means am I trying to get rich off of doing the IndianaMat.com rankings, its simply the fact that I can no longer take myself away from work, family, friends, etc. for 20 extra hours a week without some small compensation.  This brings me to my questions, and I would like to open the floor for discussion.  What did you think of the 2009 rankings (positives and negatives)?  Did you like them enough that you would be willing to pay a dollar for a season subscription?  How about 5 dollars?  Would having to pay some fee between 1 and 5 dollars a year make you think that the free rankings from the IHSWCA were a more viable option? How would you like to be able to purchase an IndianaMat tournament preview at the ticket gate of all of the major high school tournaments during the season which included a list of ranked wrestlers that will be competing with a preview type article attached?  How can the 2010 IndianaMat rankings be even better than 2009?  Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

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I'm really interested to see what the feedback on this thread is. 

 

I think I'm going to hold off at this point on making a comment.  I need to noodle on it a bit.

 

 

 

 

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I would gladly pay for the work of RankingsGuy! As the joker in the Dark Knight states: "if you're good at doing something, never do it for free."  ::)

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Absolutely! People don't understand how much time it takes to compile and formulate these data lists, etc. I would gladly pay 1-5 bucks per year for rankings! As long as there is integrity in the system and the program, I have NO PROBLEM paying for what many of us take for granted!

 

--Coach Tucker, Lowell Wrestling

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I found your work on the rankings to be invaluable last year.  I referred to the rankings quite often, and would be willing to pay $5/yr for a subscription.  Of course, you would have to make it easy for me.  In my opinion, PayPal rules!!

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Right now we are in discussions about offering the rankings on a subscription basis.  I hate to charge, but this website is not free and with the new layout, we will probably be almost doubling the cost to run the site, especially during the peak months.  Most of the first 9 months of this website have been operated in the red, meaning out of my own pocket.  Right now we are in the black, but a few upcoming expenses will most likely zap most of the money in the account. 

 

My goals for this website are to eventually(hopefully sooner rather than later) pay the people that make this website go, from the writers to the rankings people.  The more you pay, the better the quality.  If 500 members(roughly 25%)  paid $5 a year it would make things a ton easier to say the least.  We have tossed around different ideas to make money such as running a camp or tournament, amongst other ideas. 

 

As far as the rankings goes, we would probably do paypal or snail mail for paying to see the rankings.  You would most likely then gain permission to view a "hidden" area of the messageboard with the rankings there.  One big obstacle to doing it this way would be getting the updated rankings to the media around the state.  There are some other issues, but right now we just want to set some feelers to see if people would take to this idea.

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Some of you may remember, The American Grappler & Prep Power Poll???  I am looking at an issue right now from 1995...just beacuse I save everything pertaining to wrestling!!!!  The cost back then for the rankings alone was $20.00 and issues were mailed out on a monthly basis, during season I believe?  I can be certain that the rankings and magazine back then, don't even compare to all the time, work, and research RankingsGuy and Y2CJ41 does for Indiana Wrestling today.  The American Grappler Magazine and the Rankings subscriptions back then could be purchased for $39.00.  To help fund this website, along with rankings, maybe charge a bulk membership fee??  I understand the tough conditions with the economy and all, but hard work should not come free.  With the numerous members on this site and the passion all have for Indiana Wrestling....a membership fee should be assessed without question.    

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I wouldn't mind paying a fee for the services that indianamat.com provides. I believe it is only fair to those individuals that make this website go.

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Unfortunetly I have to disagree.  Rankings should not cost to see them.  First of all many people view them, such as fans, wrestlers, coaches, newspapers, and even college coaches.   I did the rankings for about 3-4 years I know how much time is involved and it is a ton, Especially when you have a job and a family to take care of, I was also a head coach which just gave me no time.  

 

I do however thenk you should set up a paypal or somethign along the lines and advertise for donations and have a target number on the site so people can see that and help donate to the cause, atleast I think this should be the first step.

 

People are always more willing to donate to something rather than pay if charged.  

 

Regarding Courtney's post I remember that but I also think that was there downfall as they are no longer in business.

 

Would I donate to help this site keep producing the product it is?  Absolutly!   Have I yet?  No I have not.

 

Would I pay to see the rankings on a subscription bases?  Absolutly not!  I would wait for my dumb friend to do it and get a copy.

 

Y2 I sent you a pm

 

Tim Spray

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Unfortunetly I have to disagree.  Rankings should not cost to see them.  First of all many people view them, such as fans, wrestlers, coaches, newspapers, and even college coaches.   I did the rankings for about 3-4 years I know how much time is involved and it is a ton, Especially when you have a job and a family to take care of, I was also a head coach which just gave me no time.  

 

I do however thenk you should set up a paypal or somethign along the lines and advertise for donations and have a target number on the site so people can see that and help donate to the cause, atleast I think this should be the first step.

 

People are always more willing to donate to something rather than pay if charged.  

 

Regarding Courtney's post I remember that but I also think that was there downfall as they are no longer in business.

 

Would I donate to help this site keep producing the product it is?  Absolutly!   Have I yet?  No I have not.

 

Would I pay to see the rankings on a subscription bases?  Absolutly not!  I would wait for my dumb friend to do it and get a copy.

 

Y2 I sent you a pmd

Tim Spray

No offense TSpray, I could not disgree more.  Viewing these individual rankings is a privelage for us. , and we appreciate the work you previously did for this; however, the team ranking are given for free, and those should be expected by the IHSAA.  These rankings are done privately, and I would gladly purchase the ability to view them.  We do not need these rankings.  We want them; therefore, we can find out does and does not want them badly enough to purchase or donate for them.  I also understand you did this for free, and in turn feel others should as well.  $% is not alot to ask for this service.  It is a service.

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I think the 2009 rankings were fantastic and helfpul on who beat who and all that stuff.

 

If you asked people to pay to see the rankings then one could post the rankings on here or other websites for others to see.  Which would take away from more people paying to see them.  I think you could get alot of people to donate money to the site.  

 

I did not know it costs money to run this website, as far as time that goes into putting this site together and the rankings yea, its like a second job.  

 

I think last years rankings were top 12, it would be nice to see top 15 or even top 20.  

 

Would I pay 5 dollars for a full seasons of the rankings, yep,

 

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Just wanted to let everyone know that you will no longer be getting rankings from the IHSWCA.  We are focusing our efforts in other areas.

 

Cale Hoover

President IHSWCA

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Tim Spray...I hope your not talking about me being your "dumb friend".  In my own personal opinion I thought that rankings back then were a joke.  I don't think the downfall was because people were charged to view the rankings.  The downfall,  if my memory serves me correct....was that coaches had to call in and request a wrestler to be ranked???  What hard work and research is done in that?  I think people back then realized rankings didn't amount to anything & kids may have been ranked based off a coaches opinion.  RankingsGuy goes way over and beyond to make the rankings more accurate and precise.  I do think that kids get caught up in the hype of being ranked and all...the final say happens at Conseco.  Not saying rankings are not needed, because it is great for the fans, coaches, and kids...I just think RankingsGuy spends more time and is more deserving to get compensated for his time.

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LOL no Courtney I have other dumb friends to many to list.  As to the poster who thought I was talking about the team rankings.  i should have clarified  that I did the individual rankings for the ihswca for 3-4 years.. I still feel it should be donation only but that is my opinion...

 

 

If you do indeed decide to start paying people for work I might be wrong but I think you have to claim yourself as a business? Or a not for profit organization I could be wrong someone that knows the law could give more info.  Almost postive that the money needs to be claimed on taxes.

 

Im not sure where this leads to when you start charging people to view your content... Just a few things to think about. 

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Last year it was top 16 and we are expecting to continue with that number.

 

 

I think the 2009 rankings were fantastic and helfpul on who beat who and all that stuff.

 

If you asked people to pay to see the rankings then one could post the rankings on here or other websites for others to see.  Which would take away from more people paying to see them.  I think you could get alot of people to donate money to the site.  

 

I did not know it costs money to run this website, as far as time that goes into putting this site together and the rankings yea, its like a second job.  

 

I think last years rankings were top 12, it would be nice to see top 15 or even top 20.  

 

Would I pay 5 dollars for a full seasons of the rankings, yep,

 

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Some of you may remember, The American Grappler & Prep Power Poll???  I am looking at an issue right now from 1995...just beacuse I save everything pertaining to wrestling!!!!  The cost back then for the rankings alone was $20.00 and issues were mailed out on a monthly basis, during season I believe?  I can be certain that the rankings and magazine back then, don't even compare to all the time, work, and research RankingsGuy and Y2CJ41 does for Indiana Wrestling today.  The American Grappler Magazine and the Rankings subscriptions back then could be purchased for $39.00.  To help fund this website, along with rankings, maybe charge a bulk membership fee??  I understand the tough conditions with the economy and all, but hard work should not come free.  With the numerous members on this site and the passion all have for Indiana Wrestling....a membership fee should be assessed without question.    

 

I do think you are comparing Apples to Oranges here.  Rick Chitwood ran the magazine and I have no idea what it cost to print and mail 10-12 ties per year, but from experience I know that it costs relativley little to run a wensite other thaan the time invested which I know from experience can become monumental.  To minimize the time, work, and research that went into the rankings back in the early ninties simply shows a lack of knowledge and thought.  In 2009 results are more readily available, email and the internet allow for an easier exchange of information, and coaches are more inlcined to share complete knowledge of the wrestlers and their records.  Getting information before email came into vogue meant several hours on the phione (with no reimbursement) each time the rankings were being prepared.  Up until we got computers at school the rankings were typed which took alot more time than ediitng by cutting and pasting does today.  Once they were typed then they had to be copied, addressed, stamped, and taken to the Post Office to be mailed.  I was never so thrilled as when we got a website and I could simply post them on the website.  It saved us several hours a week as well as money for cpoying and postage.  I was also glad as glad when Tim Spray agreed to take them over from me as I am sure those before me were when I "volunteered"

 

It is still a difficult job and does take time, but i doubt that the total time for the Individual Rankings now compares to back then.  I am not minimizing the job it is just that now there are more labor saving tools.

 

I do think it might be a bit over the top to ask coaches to provide information and then pay to get something that they were a part of producing.  Just my opinion.

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It would definitely be interesting to have a story on the "history" of the rankings.  Rex, you can probably tell us about the days when they were chiseled in stone :)

 

I remember seeing the rankings only a few times in high school.  These days it is much easier to reach the masses faster and more efficiently.  It is amazing what this internet thing has done for tasks such as the rankings and other results we waited for weeks in the mail for in the 1990s.

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Coach Peck,

 

While I value your opinion, I need to set the record straight on a couple of your points.  First of all, the rankings are still typed, I use a Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet, so yes they may not be on a typewriter if that is what you are referring to, but nonetheless, the data entry is essentially similar.  As for getting info from the coaches, I would say that 75% of the information used in the rankings was done by me checking newspapers, results pages, etc. and 25% was emails from people, and of those emails, 75% of them were from fans, and 25% were from coaches.  There were really only two coaches who sent me regular emails, and by regular I mean once a week.  Those were Lawrence North and Hanover Central, and I was thankful for the emails from both.  I would be inclined to argue that the time made up by e-mailing, etc. is more than offset by the addition of the Key Wins and Losses column of the 2009 rankings.  By many accounts, the 2009 rankings were as accurate as they have ever been, and this is not to discredit the people who did the job before, because in their time they were all that was available.. however, I find it hard to believe (although not impossible) that people were spending 20 hours a week on the rankings before 2009 and still turning out such an inferior product, and much less often at that.  I guess the old saying holds true.. "work smarter, not harder."

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It would definitely be interesting to have a story on the "history" of the rankings.  Rex, you can probably tell us about the days when they were chiseled in stone :)

 

I remember seeing the rankings only a few times in high school.  These days it is much easier to reach the masses faster and more efficiently.  It is amazing what this internet thing has done for tasks such as the rankings and other results we waited for weeks in the mail for in the 1990s.

 

I don't know if I can find the original chisel or not.  I have been thinking about writing a story about the rankings.  I want to get one or two things squared away,  but when I do I will send it to you.

 

RG - I am in no way discounting your efforts, or the efforts of anyone who would take on the task.  I was just trying to correct someone who seemed to imply that not much time was spent on them in the past.  I do find it much easier to get things on a page, and in order, today than i did in the typewriter days.  With spread sheets one can update some things without having to start all over like you used to with a typewriter.  I do think you did a good job last year and I hope you stick with it because I think when a person does them for a few years in a row they get better and better at it.

 

 

Also, I have no problem with someone being compensated for their efforts.  I certainly do not see anyone be it Joe or you or whoever getting rich from this.

 

 

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It might make sense to have a concept of free and premium service.  Without sponsors I understand that you need to rely on the community.  Quite frankly I'd ask for a minimum donation ($5-10?) for premium service.  Also if you made a profit, IMO good for you it's the American way.

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