West Central over Rochester??!!

[Pg_rated]

8 hours ago, Clint Gard said:

You also can’t just assume certain teams jump in front of teams like Prairie Heights, who lost a pretty close dual with AC.  And, Tell City has no head to heads with any 1A teams in the field in duals or tourneys so how do they automatically get the 2nd seed?  Having said that I think TC is a top 3 seed but those are all things to consider.  I don’t think this is as clear cut as some think it is. What do I know

Can I ask what seed you think Rochester deserves? They have  had a really really good season just a couple blemishes on their record.. I do think Rochester is a top 4 team, but in my opinion I’m not  sure you can seed them there.. Good luck at  the 1A state tournament! 

[Jcjcjc]

Florida State Football is on the line with a question…

Is this order of importance for seeding correct?
   1. Results head to head 

   2. results against common opponents

   3. subjective insights  

[X_R A T E D]

1 hour ago, ZZ TOP said:

Because IMO Rochester has a stronger schedule and the tournament they both just attended Rochester went 7-1 and WC went 5-3. Granted WC beat Rochester but if Rochester hadn’t spotted them 6 points at 138 I believe Rochester wins. 

Rochester does have a stronger schedule and did have a better overall record than West Central....but lost a head to head dual to West Central. We can't invalidate WC with good win and need to give them credit. The "what if" thought process leads to a fallacy which then hurts the team state event in my opinion. 

 

Do you really think the 138 forfeit changes the match? West Central 138 is ranked 5th in the EC semi state with 2 pins and a tech fall as significant wins. I don't think the 138 is the difference you think it is but the total forfeits West Central had 3 forfeits and Rochester had 2 so Rochester had a 6-0 lead with only 9 matches to wrestle. 
 

I'm only giving these point because I think WC should be rewarded for a big head to head win. They finished 11th last year at team state and weren't ranked top 10 in the last team rankings. They are peaking at the right time which is awesome for the depth of 1A.  It's exciting to see 1A improve each year and regardless of the seeds, 1A is going to fun to watch this year. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by X_R A T E D

[Clint Gard]

2 hours ago, Pg_rated said:

Can I ask what seed you think Rochester deserves? They have  had a really really good season just a couple blemishes on their record.. I do think Rochester is a top 4 team, but in my opinion I’m not  sure you can seed them there.. Good luck at  the 1A state tournament! 

As I said in my first post, I think we are a top 3 seed.  I think WC should be and can be rewarded for their win without saying Rochester or any other team automatically gets a much lower seed given what we've done this year and in previous years. The reasons people are using to give South Adams, WC, or whoever else a higher seed can be used for Rochester and other teams in the field as well.  I don't know how it will shake out but I know it's going to be a crazy, exciting day.

[Coplen187]

2 hours ago, X_R A T E D said:

Do you really think the 138 forfeit changes the match? West Central 138 is ranked 5th in the EC semi state with 2 pins and a tech fall as significant wins. I don't think the 138 is the difference you think it is but the total forfeits West Central had 3 forfeits and Rochester had 2 so Rochester had a 6-0 lead with only 9 matches to wrestle. 

 

I don't believe Rochester is going to have any forfeits at team state.  They entered the Burvan with their backup, Lillian Gerald (Girls #3,) and she was injury defaulted on day 1 and didn't return.

 

Grant Holloway in instead of a forfeit changes the dual more than the 138 swap, in my opinion.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Coplen187

[ZZ TOP]

12 hours ago, X_R A T E D said:

Rochester does have a stronger schedule and did have a better overall record than West Central....but lost a head to head dual to West Central. We can't invalidate WC with good win and need to give them credit. The "what if" thought process leads to a fallacy which then hurts the team state event in my opinion. 

 

Do you really think the 138 forfeit changes the match? West Central 138 is ranked 5th in the EC semi state with 2 pins and a tech fall as significant wins. I don't think the 138 is the difference you think it is but the total forfeits West Central had 3 forfeits and Rochester had 2 so Rochester had a 6-0 lead with only 9 matches to wrestle. 
 

I'm only giving these point because I think WC should be rewarded for a big head to head win. They finished 11th last year at team state and weren't ranked top 10 in the last team rankings. They are peaking at the right time which is awesome for the depth of 1A.  It's exciting to see 1A improve each year and regardless of the seeds, 1A is going to fun to watch this year. 

I wasn’t invalidating WC’s win. That’s why I put them at #5. But don’t invalidate their 3 losses in the same tournament either. 
 

Yes when you take into account Rochester’s 138 bumped to 144 and got pinned their 144 bumped to 150 and got pinned their 150 bumped to 157 and won by fall and they sat their 157 that finished 6-0 for the tournament. I believe if Rochester doesn’t bump those 3 wrestlers there would have been a different outcome. I’m a believer in wrestling with as full of roster as you can……don’t intentionally give up points but I’m not their coach so it doesn’t matter. 
 

It will be an exciting day of wrestling for sure. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Y2CJ41
We don't do politics

[Clint Gard]

10 hours ago, CoachFrepan said:

Very loosely related, I wish you luck @Clint Gard.  I went to the Manchester Wrestling Camp in 94/95 (I believe) with a fading love of wrestling, and you and others reignited it.  I’m now a middle school coach(in my 11th season) at Brownsburg, and credit you as one of the influences that made me passionate about the sport. One thing about wrestling is that it always works itself out.  Forums don’t influence results.  Be well and good luck to your team… and thank you for your mentorship, even if you didn’t realize it was happening.

That’s awesome!  I appreciate you posting that.  Those were good camps back in the day!  Hard to believe that was almost 30 years ago.  Glad I could help in some small way!  Good luck and keep plugging along!

[GenHeavyHandz]

2 hours ago, Silence Dogood said:

 

As ironic as rain on your wedding day or a free ride when you've already paid or some good advice that you just didn't take. 

And who would've thought it, it figures?

[Y2CJ41]

8 hours ago, ZZ TOP said:

I wasn’t invalidating WC’s win. That’s why I put them at #5. But don’t invalidate their 3 losses in the same tournament either. 
 

Yes when you take into account Rochester’s 138 bumped to 144 and got pinned their 144 bumped to 150 and got pinned their 150 bumped to 157 and won by fall and they sat their 157 that finished 6-0 for the tournament. I believe if Rochester doesn’t bump those 3 wrestlers there would have been a different outcome. I’m a believer in wrestling with as full of roster as you can……don’t intentionally give up points but I’m not their coach so it doesn’t matter. 
 

It will be an exciting day of wrestling for sure. 

If you have Rochester the 4 and West Central the 5, just switch it up as they'll hit in the quarters anyway. Good ole rematch for all the marbles.... or at least a few of them.

[Pg_rated]

40 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

If you have Rochester the 4 and West Central the 5, just switch it up as they'll hit in the quarters anyway. Good ole rematch for all the marbles.... or at least a few of them.

#Runitback

[M109R]

As I said earlier, very impressive win by West Central . I would pick Rochester in a rematch if it were to happen . I think it will be Rochester vs Adams Central for all the marbles . 

[X_R A T E D]

Will West Central have a full lineup for team state? I wonder what impact the 3 current forfeits will have on the seeds. I'm just curious after looking at each teams lineups since Tell city had an insane team last year and got seeded 4th only because of forfeits. If west central does still have 3 forfeits, I'm not sure how high they will end up but they deserve to be a top 8 seed with the big win over Rochester. 

[Coplen187]

6 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

If you have Rochester the 4 and West Central the 5, just switch it up as they'll hit in the quarters anyway. Good ole rematch for all the marbles.... or at least a few of them.

This guy seeds.

 

Rochester 3, WC 6 accomplishes the same thing without leapfrogging so many others.

 

Really excited for this dual! I hope they are on the same side of the bracket. 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Coplen187

[Y2CJ41]

11 minutes ago, Coplen187 said:

This guy seeds.

 

Rochester 3, WC 6 accomplishes the same thing without leapfrogging so many others.

 

Really excited for this dual! I hope they are on the same side of the bracket. 

 

I guess we keep forgetting head to head stuff. 

[Coplen187]

32 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I guess we keep forgetting head to head stuff

You are right.  It sure makes it hard though when you know 5 of the 14 matchups are going to be different.  

Edited December 29, 2023 by Coplen187

[CoachFrepan]

11 hours ago, Clint Gard said:

That’s awesome!  I appreciate you posting that.  Those were good camps back in the day!  Hard to believe that was almost 30 years ago.  Glad I could help in some small way!  Good luck and keep plugging along!

You and Kevin? (Wawasee I think) encouraged us to bribe you to win the clean room contest every morning.  You said you liked pizza and country music, so we ordered a pizza the night before, woke up early to warm it up, and put an “Achy Breaky Heart” cassette  on when you came in to judge.

[bomber_bob]

8 hours ago, Coplen187 said:

You are right.  It sure makes it hard though when you know 5 of the 14 matchups are going to be different.  

That doesn’t change the end result and what took place last week. The matchups were different due to a coaching decision to bump. Who’s to say that that doesn’t happen again, or if Rochester decides to not bump, that WC doesn’t still win the same number of matches? 

 

you can’t seed based on subjective criteria when you have objective data to help you seed the tournament. 
 

Like Joe said, head-to-head results have to matter the most, but that doesn’t mean Rochester should fall several spots. It just means WC has to be seeded ahead of Rochester, otherwise the whole seeding process just becomes the subjective opinion of the person who does the seeding. 

[Coplen187]

1 hour ago, bomber_bob said:

Like Joe said, head-to-head results have to matter the most, but that doesn’t mean Rochester should fall several spots. It just means WC has to be seeded ahead of Rochester, otherwise the whole seeding process just becomes the subjective opinion of the person who does the seeding. 

You are right.  I just don't want to keep seeing Tell City seeded #4 every year through no fault of their own. 

 

 

[Clint Gard]

7 hours ago, CoachFrepan said:

You and Kevin? (Wawasee I think) encouraged us to bribe you to win the clean room contest every morning.  You said you liked pizza and country music, so we ordered a pizza the night before, woke up early to warm it up, and put an “Achy Breaky Heart” cassette  on when you came in to judge.

Kevin Lake…he was a New Haven guy. But that sounds about right, except for “Achy Breaky Heart”…you guys must have been desperate. . Thanks for sharing!