Rookies03 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 1A schools don't enter 13% of the wrestlers in the state tournament, they enter 33%. So thus 33% of the population yields 13% of the state qualifiers. I never said 1A schools entered 13% of the wrestlers. I said 13% of the state qualifiers come from 13% of the student population. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Lets say that there is 1 state champ for every 100 male students (I know these aren't close to accurate but for simplicity sake). A school of 400 boys would have 4 state champs. A school of 1000 boys would have 10 state champs. Which TEAM would be better? This is why we class TEAM athletics. Well since we base the team Champion off the individual tournament seems the only fair thing to do is class it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 So are you saying that kids don't already know that the more you train at something the better the chances are that you will become better at that? NO So are you saying that as a coach of a small school, you lock your doors once your season ends? NO If not, then you are also promoting kids training outside of the wrestling season so apparently you seem to be doing the same thing? NO. Offering open mats, rides to RTCs, etc. is FAR FAR different than telling a kid he must devote 365 days a year to be a state qualifier. Are you also saying that big school coaches are bad coaches because they let their kids train most if not all year around and that they are forcing kids not to play other sports? NO. I am saying all coaches should promote multiple sport participation. So are you on record saying big school coaches are hurting kids by letting them make a choice on wrestling year around? I don't think they are doing whats best for the kid if they are not encouraging multiple sport participation. Would you like to see it become a state law/rule that every kid must participate in multiple sports if we plan on keeping our current system? Argument to absurdity...logical fallacy. Again I'm just asking these questions so I can fully understand how you feel about a coach letting a kid make a decision to train to reach his ultimate goal. And this is not geared only at small school kids since you stated that any kid training that much isn't good. I don't think it is in the best interest of the kid. If I were a coach of a kid who insisted that Wrestling was his sole passion in life, I would use 22 years of experience to tell the athlete that he will enjoy his HS days much more if he gets involved in multiple activities. If he chooses to "live the dream", I would support him. And yes... high school kids training 365 for one sport is generally not good, physically or mentally. Ive not seen too many Aaron Pico's out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I never said 1A schools entered 13% of the wrestlers. I said 13% of the state qualifiers come from 13% of the student population. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? 13% of the state qualifiers come from 34% of the state population Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Y2, How many 1A schools have dropped wrestling in the last two years? Instead of focusing on the Adam Central and Churubusco's, maybe we should look what the system did for these dead programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I never said 1A schools entered 13% of the wrestlers. I said 13% of the state qualifiers come from 13% of the student population. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? 13% of the state qualifiers come from 33% of the eligible wrestlers to make it to state. Of the 300,000 students at schools with wrestling only 3600 are eligible to make the state finals. It is absurd to include kids that have no chance of making the state finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookies03 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Something's wrong here, because if your calculations are right these schools are not getting the champs they should be getting. Read my earlier post.... I said that the data shows that placers are champs are not equal to the population size. The data shows that it is harder to place or be a champ from a 1A school. What % of Regional qualifiers are 1A? Semi State for 1A? If the answer is close to 13% then the only thing wrong with the numbers is state placers and champs. Again do we want to make a change to the entire state tournament for 3% of the wrestlers (and notice Im saying wrestlers and not student population... that would be .05%). You can say yes to this question but don't say yes because its harder for a 1A kid to get to state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 How is the 106lber losing out? He has two more practice partners....again what is bad about that? More kids on the team is good, more kids exposed to wrestling is good. I don't care if the kid is going to be a state champ or JV for life, if he works hard and has a good attitude I want him on the team. It's funny you say more kids coming out for wrestling won't make the sport better...then you go and say that schools with MORE kids are better and have better kids. Our sample sizes are the same, varsity wrestlers in the state of Indiana, which are about 3600. That is our sample. I don't care about any other kids, whether they wrestle or not. I'll give you 700 of those varsity wrestlers and I'll take 100 of them. Why won't you take my bet? Did you just say you don't care about JV kids? If you're arguing that big schools have better practice partners then you should include JV numbers as the starting point of your statistics. You also cannot count forfeits as sectional entries, so many small schools do not start with the same number as big schools. Use the most accurate starting point for your stats. It will still prove your point, just not as extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Did you just say you don't care about JV kids? If you're arguing that big schools have better practice partners then you should include JV numbers as the starting point of your statistics. You also cannot count forfeits as sectional entries, so many small schools do not start with the same number as big schools. Use the most accurate starting point for your stats. It will still prove your point, just not as extreme. Reread what I said I don't care if the kid is going to be a state champ or JV for life, if he works hard and has a good attitude I want him on the team. Where on earth does that say I don't care about JV kids? I use the 3600 number because that is basically how many entries we had in the state tournament this year. If you want to be exact it was 3572 entries in the state tournament. Sorry I really don't want to type, nor remember that number every time, but feel free to do a search and replace for me. Feel free to gather the JV numbers, I'd love to have them. I think it will show how small schools are really suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Read my earlier post.... I said that the data shows that placers are champs are not equal to the population size. The data shows that it is harder to place or be a champ from a 1A school. What % of Regional qualifiers are 1A? Semi State for 1A? If the answer is close to 13% then the only thing wrong with the numbers is state placers and champs. Again do we want to make a change to the entire state tournament for 3% of the wrestlers (and notice Im saying wrestlers and not student population... that would be .05%). You can say yes to this question but don't say yes because its harder for a 1A kid to get to state. I will be interested in your findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 So why not for the team tournament? Just have your kids buy into working 365 days for wrestling, you only need 14 to do that and you'll win state. If we ever win the team state tournament we will move up to the 3A tournament. You have that in writing. We cannot move up until we have proven that we can win the 2A tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 If we ever win the team state tournament we will move up to the 3A tournament. You have that in writing. We cannot move up until we have proven that we can win the 2A tournament. Why not do it now? Why prove you can win an easier title first? Maybe that team can win a 3A title, but you'll never know if you don't move up now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Well since we base the team Champion off the individual tournament seems the only fair thing to do is class it. There is a way within a single class individual system to still award a classed team champion at each level of the state series. The highest scoring team (reguardless of actual placement) in each class for that tournament get the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Coach where did Nick go to college at? If it isn't a D1 school are you thinking he will throw his National Champion medal in the trash since the NCAA has classed wrestling if they were to ever hand him one. That kid was a workaholic from what i hear and seen of him. I bet he would of been proud to be a classed state champ and a classed NCAA champ. Coach where did Nick go to college at? If it isn't a D1 school are you thinking he will throw his National Champion medal in the trash since the NCAA has classed wrestling if they were to ever hand him one. That kid was a workaholic from what i hear and seen of him. I bet he would of been proud to be a classed state champ and a classed NCAA champ. Nick Borta is in the Air Force and again since I am more qualified than you to commit on what Nick Borta would have wanted, I will tell you that he would not have been as happy with a classed individual title. If you would like, I could call up his dad and have him post his answer to that question for you as well. Let's bet 1000 dollars on that. Guarantee you I would win your bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randalllynch Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) I thought I saw the stats on # of schools with wrestling per state but I am not sure. But if a comparison with other states states is made it should be participating schools not population, the population would identify the number of possible participants in each school that would then dictate the class divisions, not the other way around. So if the logic of population size is proposed as the reason Illinois is classed (and if the presumption that all kids and programs are equal) then Illinois would need 900+ schools to have 3 classes to have an equatable distribution of talent in their tournaments to be equal to Indiana. Found some info: Illinois 2015 Series:Total 441: Class 1A @!152; Class 2A @ 144; Class 3A @ 145 http://www.ihsa.org/documents/wr/2014-15/wr-qf.pdf Edited March 5, 2015 by randalllynch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Read my earlier post.... I said that the data shows that placers are champs are not equal to the population size. The data shows that it is harder to place or be a champ from a 1A school. What % of Regional qualifiers are 1A? Semi State for 1A? If the answer is close to 13% then the only thing wrong with the numbers is state placers and champs. Again do we want to make a change to the entire state tournament for 3% of the wrestlers (and notice Im saying wrestlers and not student population... that would be .05%). You can say yes to this question but don't say yes because its harder for a 1A kid to get to state. Feel free to gather the data, I think I've done my fair share. So why can 1A kids make their allotment to state, but not as a placer or champion? Doesn't that also show a disparity? Maybe, just maybe these schools have the athletes that can place and win state, but lack of coaching, lack of quality partners, strength of schedule, multiple sport athletes, etc hurts them. I'm willing to change the state tournament for the 1800 varsity kids that are hurt by the above differences. I thought I saw the stats on # of schools with wrestling per state but I am not sure. But if a comparison with other states states is made it should be participating schools not population, the population would identify the number of possible participants in each school that would then dictate the class divisions, not the other way around. So if the logic of population size is proposed as the reason Illinois is classed (and if the presumption that all kids and programs are equal) then Illinois would need 900+ schools to have 3 classes to have an equatable distribution of talent in their tournaments to be equal to Indiana. http://indianamat.com/stuff/statebreakdown.html Indiana is the 1st or 2nd TOUGHEST state tournament in the country! YES!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldandbroke Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 My hats off to Nick and if you hear from him thank him for his service. I commend any kid that chooses to serve our country. ugotstuck2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) 1A schools don't enter 13% of the wrestlers in the state tournament, they enter 33%. So thus 33% of the population yields 13% of the state qualifiers. Does 1A actually enter 33% of the state tournament total participant? Does this stat take into account the actual number of entries from 1A schools or just that in a 3 class system divided equally 1A makes up 33% of the schools? Not to say the numbers substantially lower, but since many 1A schools are not able to field a entire roster compared to most 2A and 3A teams the actual percentage of wrestlers entered at 1A maybe a little less than 33%. Just trying to see for the discussion that the statistic for the actual wrestlers entered on average for each class is being compared rather than the number of teams in each class. Edited March 5, 2015 by MattM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Nick Borta is in the Air Force and again since I am more qualified than you to commit on what Nick Borta would have wanted, I will tell you that he would not have been as happy with a classed individual title. If you would like, I could call up his dad and have him post his answer to that question for you as well. Let's bet 1000 dollars on that. Guarantee you I would win your bet. Of course thats easy to say about Borta, because he won it. He's almost the prototypical hoosier, the guy from the middle size school who rose to beat the big guys. It would be perfect if he was from Milan high school. So everybody loves that guy, that overcame the odds. He can say if I can do it, anybody can do it. How about the "Borta" equivalent from Oklahoma, Colorado, Oregon, Virginia, Michigan, (other 40 states with class wrestling). When they walk off the state champ stand, do they say " Im not as happy because this is a classed individual title". Do they smile a little less and do a shorter victory dance. Does their metal have an asterisk on it? Does their picture say good job bust "classed". Ill bet you a 1000 dollars they dont do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Of course thats easy to say about Borta, because he won it. He's almost the prototypical hoosier, the guy from the middle size school who rose to beat the big guys. It would be perfect if he was from Milan high school. So everybody loves that guy, that overcame the odds. He can say if I can do it, anybody can do it. How about the "Borta" equivalent from Oklahoma, Colorado, Oregon, Virginia, Michigan, (other 40 states with class wrestling). When they walk off the state champ stand, do they say " Im not as happy because this is a classed individual title". Do they smile a little less and do a shorter victory dance. Does their metal have an asterisk on it? Does their picture say good job bust "classed". Ill bet you a 1000 dollars they dont do this. Borta finished 6th and 7th I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 One part that I haven't seen brought up is that programs are built from the ground up. You are not going to recruit a bunch of High School kids to wrestle (who never have) and take them to state. I personally don't think, unless they are an anomaly, that this should happen. It is getting tougher to get kids from middle school to state. There is a huge difference between the top 8 kids to the top 16 and even more so after that. The problem isn't (at this time) increasing wrestling numbers at state, but talent that separates them. How many weight classes this year couldn't be figured down to the top 4. Maybe 3-4? The other thing the states that everyone keeps talking about have that we don't are stellar kid programs. Most do elementary meets, tons of off season wrestling and work as a community. Most of us agree on it will take an act of God to get things changed with ISHAA, that there will always be things we disagree on, and that we all have a love for this sport. CLOSE THIS POST AND START A NEW ONE WITH HOW WE CAN HELP EACH OTHER GROW THE SPORT WITHIN OUR CONTROL!!!!!!!!! Super_Fan and Thor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Borta finished 6th and 7th I think. Ok, I wasnt up on the facts. I just assumed that he won a title when it when Swain 358 said he wouldnt of been happy with a classed title. Why would you use somebody as an example that wouldnt be happy about about winning a non-classed title when they didnt even win a classed title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Does 1A actually enter 33% of the state tournament total participant? Does this stat take into account the actual number of entries from 1A schools or just that in a 3 class system divided equally 1A makes up 33% of the schools? Not to say the numbers substantially lower, but since many 1A schools are not able to field a entire roster compared to most 2A and 3A teams the actual percentage of wrestlers entered at 1A maybe a little less than 33%. Just trying to see for the discussion that the statistic for the actual wrestlers entered on average for each class is being compared rather than the number of teams in each class. Entries Per team Percent 3A- 1362-- 13.48-- 38% 2A- 1211-- 11.99-- 34% 1A- 999-- 9.89-- 28% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Ok, I wasnt up on the facts. I just assumed that he won a title when it when Swain 358 said he wouldnt of been happy with a classed title. Why would you use somebody as an example that wouldnt be happy about about winning a non-classed title when they didnt even win a classed title. I used that example because someone else said that my example of state level kid from a small school (Nick Borta) would have been just as happy winning a state classed title as winning a one class title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 So, number of qualifiers should be.... 3A - 85 2A - 76 1A - 63 Placers.... 3A - 43 2A - 38 1A - 31 Champs.... 3A - 5 2A - 5 1A - 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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