boomer Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Glad to see the post didnt die while i drove to indy. Baybe we can compromise. Have 2 classes then after the season we take the top 8 from each and invite them for a tournament. If someone chooses not to come then start inviting kids that got eliminated in first round. We could do it right with full wrestle backs and everything. I bet the kids would love the competition. Sounds like it could work, but first we would have to get the ihsaa to change to classes. But since we cant get wrestle back i doubt the would be intereste in classing. So i guess were debating something thats not going to happen anyway. O well lets go watch some great wrestling in a few hours and see what major upset happen so we have something to talk about tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I suppose the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" crowd are getting to bankers life on their donkey cart. I'll take a nice modern automobile. Lets hear your side of the debate. What interests you about a classed system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Glad to see the post didnt die while i drove to indy. Baybe we can compromise. Have 2 classes then after the season we take the top 8 from each and invite them for a tournament. If someone chooses not to come then start inviting kids that got eliminated in first round. We could do it right with full wrestle backs and everything. I bet the kids would love the competition. Sounds like it could work, but first we would have to get the ihsaa to change to classes. But since we cant get wrestle back i doubt the would be intereste in classing. So i guess were debating something thats not going to happen anyway. O well lets go watch some great wrestling in a few hours and see what major upset happen so we have something to talk about tonight. Can't wait to see some action! Good luck to you and your guys Boomer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Lets hear your side of the debate. What interests you about a classed system? The fact that other states have multiple classes and they also have quality wrestling leads me to believe that there can be a benefit to grow the sport. The downside is essentially meaningless. This desire to have a single champion is a selfish in my opinion. I've heard no meaningful argument that it would hurt the sport. So, it's worth consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 once again if classes or more guys having what you call "success" will make the sport grow i dont see why we shouldnt have 6 classes. then every parent in the state can watch their kid at state finals of course state will be held in multiple HS gyms around the state. im sorry Y2...how dare i expect someone to work hard to earn something. instead we should give out more awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I attended a camp at Michigan back in-the-day and I remember Zeke Jones asking how many of the kids in our group were state qualifiers.. Most of the kids were from Michigan (classed) so almost everyone, except my team-mate and I, raised their hand that they were a state qualifier. I recall thinking about how there was a tournament at the end of the camp and I was going to get crushed due to all of the "state" caliber kids. Later, during he tournament I destroyed several of the Michigan "state" kids without issue, I was a Regional qualifier in Indiana. At that time I remember thinking that classed wrestling was stupid, being a "state qualifier" should mean something. I now help coach at a very small 1A school, we haven't had anyone make it to state in several years. I can tell you that for us the classed team state is a very big deal. One of our main goals is to make it someday and place as a 1A school. So, I still feel that the one-class individual state is ideal, our state qualifiers and champs need to be the cream of the crop. But, the classed team model has given small schools something to strive for, and someday when we get an individual back to state they will be "special".. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Great for what? Great for the big schools, why yes. Great for stunting the growth of the sport, why yes. Great for making it near impossible for a small school to have success, why yes. What evidence shows that it stunts the growth for small schools.... While you were at Garrett you started having success...l more qualifiers and more placers... Was the lack of class wrestling stunting the growth of that program? There are numerous large schools who are not good at wrestling at all but those schools are never talked about... So single class wrestling does not benefit those schools at all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The fact that other states have multiple classes and they also have quality wrestling leads me to believe that there can be a benefit to grow the sport. The downside is essentially meaningless. This desire to have a single champion is a selfish in my opinion. I've heard no meaningful argument that it would hurt the sport. So, it's worth consideration. Some valid points. I think some of the powerhouse states have significantly higher numbers (Illinois, Ohio, PA, TX, NJ) and deeper talent than Indiana so it makes sense for them to class. As for KY, I have NO idea why they class. Could a classed system work? Who knows? It would not "kill" Indiana wrestling by any means but it would drastically water it down for at least 5-7 years if not indefinitely (until these small schools have the success snowball factor that you and Y2 believe it would). Of course there is no guarantee that the small schools will have any more success than they do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 wouldnt have to make your program any better the success would come without anyone getting better or by raising the numbers so why bother working hard at that point youre now successful without working any harder than you were before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 once again if classes or more guys having what you call "success" will make the sport grow i dont see why we shouldnt have 6 classes. then every parent in the state can watch their kid at state finals of course state will be held in multiple HS gyms around the state. im sorry Y2...how dare i expect someone to work hard to earn something. instead we should give out more awards. Ahh yes the "work hard" argument. So you are saying kids in Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, etc don't work hard to qualify for state? Awesome argument. No one is advocating six classes. How about we only have one weight class? That would seem to support your argument even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 It's not currently hurting Mater Dei, Yorktown, Bellmont, South Adams. It is definitely not near impossible for these guys. Is it great for the big schools? Do you think the Bigs just have success automatically because of numbers? heck NO Look at their coaches; Franklin- Hasseman Perry- Tonte and Schoettle Penn- Harper Mishawaka- Smith/Snyder/Hasseman Cathedral-Rhodes/McGinley These guys are completely dedicated and have built staffs and communities that buy into their system. You would be hard pressed to go to an off season meet and not see these guys there. I have NO doubt these guys would be successful at 1A schools as well. It would take a few years, but it would happen. There is NO substitute for HARD WORK. But there is a shortcut...which it sounds like you would like to take. So kids and teams at the 1A level just aren't working hard is that what you are saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 So kids and teams at the 1A level just aren't working hard is that what you are saying? No that's not what I'm saying as evidenced by all the hard working tough guys wrestling this weekend from small schools. It is no secret that high school success begins in the elementary program. Look at Perry. There coaches are working hard 7 days a week in season and probably 4-5 out of season developing these young guys. Same for Bellmont, Penn, Cathedral, Mater Dei, Franklin. You can't just show up in November and have your school make a morning announcement for wrestling tryouts and hope 14 tough kids show up with some experience. But you know all of this you just like to debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 No that's not what I'm saying as evidenced by all the hard working tough guys wrestling this weekend from small schools. It is no secret that high school success begins in the elementary program. Look at Perry. There coaches are working hard 7 days a week in season and probably 4-5 out of season developing these young guys. Same for Bellmont, Penn, Cathedral, Mater Dei, Franklin. You can't just show up in November and have your school make a morning announcement for wrestling tryouts and hope 14 tough kids show up with some experience. But you know all of this you just like to debate I think you are saying that the reason the 1A teams aren't having success is they just don't work hard enough. You equate success to "working hard" and 1A teams aren't having success. That would translate to them not working hard by my calculations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RASSLER4LIFE Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I like the take that "Hornet" has. I wrestled at a small school, had one child wrestle at a large school and 2 younger ones wrestling back at a small school and to have a chance to wrestle the Perry Meridians, New Pals, Cathedrals and the likes are what my kids strived and strive for. They seek that competition and think nothing of it. They don't feel sorry for themselves and want to wrestle smaller or easier opponents but do dream of competing at individual state against the big boys. Why take that away from them. We do use competing for a "Single A Team Title" to attract more kids to the program but dream of competing with top notch programs. With all the wrestling academies and the RTC's any wrestler who can afford to travel can get right in there with the kids from the "Big Schools". Make no excuses, work hard, and let the chips fall where they may!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 So kids and teams at the 1A level just aren't working hard is that what you are saying? your schools size has nothing to do with one single person making it to state finals. kids at small schools that work hard and become good enough qualify for state the only thing your numbers show is a statistic dont give the 308 school number anymore get every single schools full sectional roster and then the numbers will show that it is statistically even Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 your schools size has nothing to do with one single person making it to state finals. kids at small schools that work hard and become good enough qualify for state the only thing your numbers show is a statistic dont give the 308 school number anymore get every single schools full sectional roster and then the numbers will show that it is statistically even So since small schools have a hugely disproportionate amount of state qualifiers those kids just flat out do not work hard enough. That is what you are saying. I am so glad we have solved the problem. Attention 1A schools, work harder or you will continue to be the whipping boys of wrestling in the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 how can you say that the small schools arent having success? small schools have success all the time you wanting them to prove equal as a TEAM to the large schools is unrealistic and thus the team version of wrestling is classed individually if you are a one man team you can win a state title over the kid from the largest school in the country dont need a team for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 So since small schools have a hugely disproportionate amount of state qualifiers those kids just flat out do not work hard enough. That is what you are saying. I am so glad we have solved the problem. Attention 1A schools, work harder or you will continue to be the whipping boys of wrestling in the state. Y2 s classic argumentum ad nauseum tactic. Beat it into the ground Joe, even though you know that is not what we are saying. Hope you enjoy the one class state finals this year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FANMAN Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 how can you say that the small schools arent having success? small schools have success all the time you wanting them to prove equal as a TEAM to the large schools is unrealistic and thus the team version of wrestling is classed individually if you are a one man team you can win a state title over the kid from the largest school in the country dont need a team for that There is no IHSAA classed team version. WTF you smoking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 There is no IHSAA classed team version. WTF you smoking? He is referring to IHSWCA Team state (classed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Wrestling Fanpage Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Lets hear your side of the debate. What interests you about a classed system? 1 class,1 champ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomer Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I guess all this talk about being watered down and the one true champ is cunfusing to me. I grew up and wrestled in a small town in ohio with there classed system. I never heard anyone complaining about a kid being a state champ but he was from a small school division and he lost at some tournament to the big school champ so hes not really a champ. I guess i just want whats best for the kids. If a classed system is whats best then i'm all for it. If single class is whats best im for that. But the school of thought of its always been this way and it should stay that i dont buy. We all had our shot at the title and we either made it or fell short but we cant go back. I just want the future of indiana wrestling to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 if EMD is a small school how do they have success???????????????????? they work hard they have great coaching im not saying other small schools dont work hard but its pretty obvious if EMD can do it from a small school then so can other small schools. i suppose that kids that play golf for small schools should also get a mulligan every 9 holes???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FANMAN Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 He is referring to IHSWCA Team state (classed) Duh, but the IHSAA isn't, they did away with the " team ". It took coaches association to decide to class it. Ask the coaches if individual should be classed, and I'd wager it would get passed. But, the IHSAA is a hard wall to knock down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I guess all this talk about being watered down and the one true champ is cunfusing to me. I grew up and wrestled in a small town in ohio with there classed system. I never heard anyone complaining about a kid being a state champ but he was from a small school division and he lost at some tournament to the big school champ so hes not really a champ. I guess i just want whats best for the kids. If a classed system is whats best then i'm all for it. If single class is whats best im for that. But the school of thought of its always been this way and it should stay that i dont buy. We all had our shot at the title and we either made it or fell short but we cant go back. I just want the future of indiana wrestling to grow. Indiana and Ohio is apples and oranges Boomer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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