Greywolf Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 The winter bulletin page 63, B6. A. Head to head competition;(the wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the most recent match gets the seed.); B. record against common opponents; C. Best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10 matches; D. Farthest advancement in previous year IHSAA state tournement series; E. Draw by lot. Criteria is reset after determining each seed. A lot more information in this bulletin. If you are a voter at the meetings, please read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I think you're right, except that this year the criteria have changed so much, some of us are questioning whether they were printed in the bulletin as they were intended. We definitely need to get a clarification on the criteria prior to the sectional seed meetings. Specifically the part about "Prior year IHSAA semi‐state quarterfinalist," which was in the previous criteria, but omitted without explanation from the winter bulletin list. I felt the criteria was added in an attempt to curb the problem of coaches arguing about opponent quality that sometime is a factor when reaching the winning percentage criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 We definitely need to get a clarification on the criteria prior to the sectional seed meetings. Specifically the part about "Prior year IHSAA semi‐state quarterfinalist," which was in the previous criteria, but omitted without explanation from the winter bulletin list. I felt the criteria was added in an attempt to curb the problem of coaches arguing about opponent quality that sometime is a factor when reaching the winning percentage criteria. The Semi-State quarterfinalist criteria is in this year's Tournament Manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachi123 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 This is the same criteria used as last year. We had a returning sectional champ(SSQ also) get seeded 3rd last year. Ridiculous!!(he still won it) I disagree with Y2 saying u should not use a loss(injury default, over weight,ect..) from an individual tourney for seeding. Just because a 5th or 7th place match doesn't mean something to u, doesn't mean it's nothing to your opponent. If u weigh n and wrestle day one of and indivdual tourney then injury default your first match(or miss weight) then it's a loss. Period I've done so much right and still been call a ....! I quit making friends long ago.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 This is the same criteria used as last year. We had a returning sectional champ(SSQ also) get seeded 3rd last year. Ridiculous!!(he still won it) I disagree with Y2 saying u should not use a loss(injury default, over weight,ect..) from an individual tourney for seeding. Just because a 5th or 7th place match doesn't mean something to u, doesn't mean it's nothing to your opponent. If u weigh n and wrestle day one of and indivdual tourney then injury default your first match(or miss weight) then it's a loss. Period I've done so much right and still been call a ....! I quit making friends long ago.. Our 152lber's 3rd place match at Connersville does not count as a loss on his record for the season due to him being illegally slammed the match prior(that is per Robert Faulkens). His opponent should add the win to his record. However, the coach should not try to use that match for seeding criteria. That would be extremely shady and unethical. If the kid doesn't step on the mat then you can't reasonably claim a win over the kid. That is absurd. That is like claiming a forfeit win in a dual is over Joe Schmoe because he weighed in, but didn't wrestle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachi123 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Apples Your kid gets slammed in one match, wins, but cannot go on to wrestle the rest of an Individual tourney. Injury defaults Oranges Kid gets beat in consolation semis, cries to mommy, and go puts his street clothes. Injury defaults for 6th place. Never said anything about duals. It could be just as unethical to run from that match. Especially if its someone in your conference or sectional!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMON MAN Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 When a wrestler does not report to the mat in a tournament the coach has two options: 1) forfeit 2) default If the coach opts to default the wrestler receives a loss on his record against that opponent. If the coach opts to forfeit the match there is no loss, however the wrestler is no longer allowed to acquire points in the tournament. Personally, I would not use a win over someone who didn't step on the mat in a seeding meeting. If my wrestler was getting dominated by the other kid and won by default I would not use that win to get a seed either. But ultimately it comes back to the coaches decision to ff or default. Choose wisely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachi123 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I have seen the last 4 years(including are own kids) injury default in placement rounds. These are losses. I have never used any of these losses to get anyone seeded. The problem lies in the percentage criteria. If that is not counted as loss then what is it. Free pass? I can tell u several, even one state placer, that these"losses" never showed up on their record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retired126 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I have seen the last 4 years(including are own kids) injury default in placement rounds. These are losses. I have never used any of these losses to get anyone seeded. The problem lies in the percentage criteria. If that is not counted as loss then what is it. Free pass? I can tell u several, even one state placer, that these"losses" never showed up on their record. Max Buckley from Valpo did it last year at regionals and you all know he did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1894life Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 If a wrestler is seeded for a tournament but is unable to wrestle, can a replacement be put in for him (as long as he has not been seeded in the tournament)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 If a wrestler is seeded for a tournament but is unable to wrestle, can a replacement be put in for him (as long as he has not been seeded in the tournament)? The replacement will go to the last seeded spot and everyone else will be moved up a seed. This is obviously good only if the alternate is properly entered also. For example if Mr. Wrong is seeded #2 and there are 6 seeded wrestlers, Mr. Wrong's replacement will go in the #6 seed slot and #3-6 will move up a seed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 The winter bulletin page 63, B6. A. Head to head competition;(the wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the most recent match gets the seed.); B. record against common opponents; C. Best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10 matches; D. Farthest advancement in previous year IHSAA state tournement series; E. Draw by lot. Criteria is reset after determining each seed. A lot more information in this bulletin. If you are a voter at the meetings, please read. The Winter Bulletin was updated this morning with this change 6. Determination of seeded wrestlers is given in order of importance: a. Head to head competition; (The wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the last match gets the seed.); b. Record against common opponents; c. Semi‐State quarterfinalist in IHSAA Tournament Series; d. A contestant with the best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10 matches; e. Farthest advancement in previous year IHSAA State Tournament Series; f. Draw by lot. Criteria is reset after determining each seed. NOTE: A wrestler with less than ten matches may not be seeded ahead of a wrestler with at least ten matches and a winning record unless he/she meets criteria in a, b or c. A wrestler with a losing record may not be seeded unless he/she meets criteria a, b or c unless there are less than six (6) wrestlers in the bracket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 A fine example of the effect a message board can have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1894life Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 The replacement will go to the last seeded spot and everyone else will be moved up a seed. This is obviously good only if the alternate is properly entered also. For example if Mr. Wrong is seeded #2 and there are 6 seeded wrestlers, Mr. Wrong's replacement will go in the #6 seed slot and #3-6 will move up a seed. What if you only seed 4 and the guy you are taking out is the 4 seed. Do one of the other 2 unseeded guys move up? Or does the best guy out of the 3 (including my replacement) get the 4 seed based on criteria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 What if you only seed 4 and the guy you are taking out is the 4 seed. Do one of the other 2 unseeded guys move up? Or does the best guy out of the 3 (including my replacement) get the 4 seed based on criteria? The replacement will go in at #4. The only exception would possibly be if the replacement is of the Forfeit family. If that is the case it would be the last drawn unseeded guy filling that spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phscoach Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 A fine example of the effect a message board can have! Could be. Or it could be the fact that last week when I noticed the difference last week, I contacted the IHSWCA (gasp!) president and asked him if this was accurate. He responded (within minutes) that it was a misprint and he would contact Mr. Faulkens to work on correcting it. Either way. Just glad it got resolved. That clause can help some of these seeding problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 The replacement will go in at #4. The only exception would possibly be if the replacement is of the Forfeit family. If that is the case it would be the last drawn unseeded guy filling that spot. The Forfeit family has a long history of getting screwed over at seeding meetings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Playing devil's advocate: Yes, coaches should have an overall respect for the sport and try to have the best kids separated, but at the end of the day you should try to do what's best for your kid. Who cares if it's fair for a kid at another school. You have no loyalty to anyone else in the tournament who doesn't wear your teams' singlet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Playing devil's advocate: Yes, coaches should have an overall respect for the sport and try to have the best kids separated, but at the end of the day you should try to do what's best for your kid. Who cares if it's fair for a kid at another student. You have no loyalty to anyone else in the tournament who doesn't wear your teams' singlet. And that my friends is why we have an awful reputation with the IHSAA as coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmak Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Playing devil's advocate: Yes, coaches should have an overall respect for the sport and try to have the best kids separated, but at the end of the day you should try to do what's best for your kid. Who cares if it's fair for a kid at another school. You have no loyalty to anyone else in the tournament who doesn't wear your teams' singlet. Lmao. Wow. At first I thought this was quite funny, then I realized you are being serious. Smh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Playing devil's advocate: Yes, coaches should have an overall respect for the sport and try to have the best kids separated, but at the end of the day you should try to do what's best for your kid. Who cares if it's fair for a kid at another school. You have no loyalty to anyone else in the tournament who doesn't wear your teams' singlet. A perfect example of why the powers that be look down upon us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Lmao. Wow. At first I thought this was quite funny, then I realized you are being serious. Smh Serious? Short vocab lesson: a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, for the sake of debate. I never said I agreed with point of view, but isn't that what some/many coaches believe whether they admit it or not? The mindset that there's no greater good to be accomplished, just how I can help the kids in my program be the most successful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 The sad thing is doing something like this isn't going to magically get a kid to state. It might get him a better placement at conference or sectional, but the kid is obviously not good enough to beat the competition so they have to resort to these tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 A perfect example of why the powers that be look down upon us Good point. Those powers at be are definitely beyond reproach. They always do what's best for a sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Good point. Those powers at be are definitely beyond reproach. They always do what's best for a sport. If you have a kid that constantly defies you will you give them what they want? Now replace kid with coaches and you with the IHSAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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