XCard Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Is there a such thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coops99 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Abe Hall dec Dominique Stauffer 3-2 in sudden death ot the first week of the season. Id say that was a quality loss in the sense that now you know what youre going up against and to beat him you have got to kick it in the ass in your mental and physical training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maolsen Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 All loses are quality loses... you learn more from a lose then a wi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Sobchak Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 If you are referring to seeding criteria I can chime in... we have a kid in our sectional who is 30-1. His loss is to a kid with an 17-18 record in same sectional. I would say 17-18 has a tougher schedule so does that mean he has 18 quality losses? If the 30-1 wrestler had same schedule would he be 17-18? Tough call who gets the higher seed? 17-18 lost to kid who was 24-19, but 30-1 beat 24-19? Have fun and figure this one out. Enjoying my coffee!!! Am I Wrong?!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julio Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 This is 1 that drove me nuts at seed meetings. A lose is a lose regardless of whom it was to and when. This is not the BCS, so why punish a team that has to wrestle a weaker schedule because their AD will not schedule tougher opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Sobchak Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 You missing my point Julio... 30-1 lost to a kid who is 17-18, so why should he be punished because he has a tougher schedule, he beat a kid with 30 wins!!!!!! How is it he gets seed below him???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julio Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Well it looks to me that head to head 30-1 beats 24-19 but 24-19 beats 17-18 and 17-18 beats 30-1 then you would have to go on their records, which if I am not mistaken is in the IHSAA guidlines for seeding . In this case you are taking about 3 wrestlers, I'm talking about 2 wrestlers who have not face each other and are equal in common opponents, and 1 coach trying to use his strength of schedule defense to get the higher seed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Sobchak Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Ok calm down.... I am calmer than you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Is there a such thing? I would say if there were such a thing, it would be the losses listed under "Notable Wins and Losses" in the rankings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornton Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Is there a such thing? If Tsirtsis is, lets say 32-0, then I would say there are at least 32 "quality" losses out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinl Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Well it looks to me that head to head 30-1 beats 24-19 but 24-19 beats 17-18 and 17-18 beats 30-1 then you would have to go on their records, which if I am not mistaken is in the IHSAA guidlines for seeding . In this case you are taking about 3 wrestlers, I'm talking about 2 wrestlers who have not face each other and are equal in common opponents, and 1 coach trying to use his strength of schedule defense to get the higher seed. Julio, Now you should know better than mess with the queen of calm. He is always calmer than everyone else and knows what you are thinking even when you don't. Your point is valid and thus it will be criticized. It probably has something to do with a secret movie that he has seen and is quoting. Don't worry you will be criticized because you do not watch the same movies. Personally I know my son has had a few quality losses. To me those are ones where he sucked it up and wrestled hard through an injury or caused him to focus more or allowed him to learn a valuable lesson against a quality opponent. If you can do that during the regular season and let it make you stronger it was a quality loss whether it was your only loss or one among many. Fortunately in my son's case there is a link between nearly every one at his weight and there are no big issues. But I believe that there was a post on here earlier that pointed to the exact requirements for seeding and strength of schedule was not one of those. If I remember correctly it was 1) head to head, 2) common opponents, 3) returning champ at the same weight, and 4 current record. Could be a few more or I might be off on one or the other but SoS was not one that I remember in the top four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julio Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I see. I thought that someone was asking a real question, how dumb of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I think the question could be flipped...are there quality wins? I commented on another thread about people bring their shiny records into tourney time and go home early. It will all shake out in the end. Best time of the year for wrestling!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgyorks Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is simple if a kid whether ranked 10th, 3rd, unranked or whatever.. If he looses to #1 3-2 that is a quality loss. A loss like that proves more than beating a kid ranked 16th 3-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyho Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 loss is a loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cradlesr4babies Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I think the question could be flipped...are there quality wins? I commented on another thread about people bring their shiny records into tourney time and go home early. It will all shake out in the end. Best time of the year for wrestling!!!!!!! Right On! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestler102 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Is there a such thing? Yes there is such a thing. You all think a quality loss is to someone really great, but thats not always the case. If a 1st year wrestler loses bad to Tsirtsis how is that a quality losps if he wrestled bad? If you lose but wrestle well I would say that's a quality loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewrestlingdude Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It all shakes out in the end. Best statement so far. Best time of year, second best statement!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Sobchak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Julio, this is a serious topic dude, however is there a problem to bringing in some humor from time to time? KevinL: Again, you are out of your element. Seeding a tournament is suppose to be done to keep the best wrestlers away from each other. The IHSAA issues Recommended seeding criteria.... If you go by those strictly, then why even have seed meetings? You could have a committee use the criteria and seed the tournament. The point here dude is coaches know what is right they know who is the best but yet sometimes they hide behind the seeding criteria to gain an advantage for team points or to avoid someone tough in the semi-finals to try and advance. I have seen numerous times a #4 seed and a #1 seed meet in the semi finals an have a barn burner of a match and the #2 and #3 kids end up getting majored in the finals or for third.... what if a kid comes in with 9 losses but 6 of those were to the same kid ranked in state and all 6 losses happened by a combined 8 points. He is obviously the next best kid but gets seeded 4th and has to face that kid in semis.... because of Recommended criteria and not common sense am I WRONG!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewrestlingdude Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Your not wrong Walter your just an @#$%e. !!!! On the other side of the equation... what coach in his right mind wouldn't put up a fight for his kid to have the best chance. Its not hideing behind something it is taking a tactical advantage. All good wrestling coaches have a little lawyer in them trying to build the best case for their kid at a seeding meeting and they are all competitive and don't want to give an inch.... many tournaments are won in lost in the seed meeting!!! The Dude Abides!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 All good wrestling coaches have a little lawyer in them... Ouch! That would hurt dude... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewrestlingdude Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 ;D rephrase .... all coaches can act a little like a lawyer now and then!!!! Jimtown Jimmy that was a good one!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinl Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 KevinL: Again, you are out of your element. Seeding a tournament is suppose to be done to keep the best wrestlers away from each other. The IHSAA issues Recommended seeding criteria.... If you go by those strictly, then why even have seed meetings? You could have a committee use the criteria and seed the tournament. The point here dude is coaches know what is right they know who is the best but yet sometimes they hide behind the seeding criteria to gain an advantage for team points or to avoid someone tough in the semi-finals to try and advance. I have seen numerous times a #4 seed and a #1 seed meet in the semi finals an have a barn burner of a match and the #2 and #3 kids end up getting majored in the finals or for third.... what if a kid comes in with 9 losses but 6 of those were to the same kid ranked in state and all 6 losses happened by a combined 8 points. He is obviously the next best kid but gets seeded 4th and has to face that kid in semis.... because of Recommended criteria and not common sense am I WRONG!!!! Go back to HomeEc Walter. Since I do not know you I am not positive but I would imagine I have a lot more knowledge than you think I do. I have been around the sport for close to 15 years as an adult. If you look on another thread (concerning redrawing brackets at Sectionals) I posted the direct link and quoted verbatim, this time I said I think, meaning that I did not take the time to look it up. According to the IHSAA it is not RECOMMENDED, it is what it is. Oh and I was dead on so I don't think it is ME that is out of their element. They can be fudged no doubt, but they are there there to be followed. IF any coach demands they are followed then there is no discussion. Try a little tact when you reply and maybe people will feel they can have an intelligent conversation with you. Apparently your humor is not as humorous as you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Sobchak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 KevinL: 15 years, thats amazing :. I never took homeEc although I did date a homeEc teacher once in college..... it isnt what it is, it is CONSIDERATION... so I used the wrong word are we going to argue semantics?? lets not split hairs here.... Here is a good question for you. Wrestler finishes 2nd in state as a Junior. He is injured early in senior season and comes back week before sectional but only has 8 matches non of which are against sectional opponents or common opponents. He is one weight class above the previous year. Where is he seeded? I look forward to your answer!!!! Be sure to use that 15years of adult experience and the consideration of criteria listed in the IHSAA 2011/2012 winter bulletin. I provided below. 5. Coaches should strive to keep u]open minds [/u] [/size] [/size] [/size] when seedings are being decided. The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the fi nals. Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage. 6. Consideration for determining seeded wrestlers is given in order of importance: a. Head to head competition; (The wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the last match gets the seed.); b. Record against common opponents; c. A returning champion or runner-up in the same weight class; d. A contestant with the best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10 matches; NOTE: A wrestler with less than ten matches may not be seeded ahead of a wrestler with at least ten matches and a winning record unless he/she meets criteria in a, b or c. A wrestler with a losing record may not be seeded unless he/she meets criteria a, b or c unless there are less than six (6) wrestlers in the bracket. You are right I said Recommended not consideration. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinl Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 KevinL: 15 years, thats amazing :. I never took homeEc although I did date a homeEc teacher once in college..... it isnt what it is, it is CONSIDERATION... so I used the wrong word are we going to argue semantics?? lets not split hairs here.... Here is a good question for you. Wrestler finishes 2nd in state as a Junior. He is injured early in senior season and comes back week before sectional but only has 8 matches non of which are against sectional opponents or common opponents. He is one weight class above the previous year. Where is he seeded? I look forward to your answer!!!! Be sure to use that 15years of adult experience and the consideration of criteria listed in the IHSAA 2011/2012 winter bulletin. I provided below. 5. Coaches should strive to keep u]open minds [/u] [/size] [/size] [/size] when seedings are being decided. The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the fi nals. Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage. 6. Consideration for determining seeded wrestlers is given in order of importance: a. Head to head competition; (The wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the last match gets the seed.); b. Record against common opponents; c. A returning champion or runner-up in the same weight class; d. A contestant with the best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10 matches; NOTE: A wrestler with less than ten matches may not be seeded ahead of a wrestler with at least ten matches and a winning record unless he/she meets criteria in a, b or c. A wrestler with a losing record may not be seeded unless he/she meets criteria a, b or c unless there are less than six (6) wrestlers in the bracket. You are right I said Recommended not consideration. B For consideration does not mean recommended. That is not splitting hairs. Wow I am impressed. Based on your posts I figured you to be about 17. I recognize that I was wrong. It is a shame that you cannot do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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