Wrestling ind vs team

[rebelsfan]

If the question is meant to ask--" which should be most important to a high school wrestling program a team title or an individual title"---then the answer by all means should be TEAM!!

The high school experience is all about trying to teach young audults how to live and prosper in the real world.

I think most people would say that learning how to work with others,how to treat others, and how to strive together to make a better world takes a determined team effort.You can't do it by yourself.

 

Teamwork  should  be learned at an early age hopefully and a high school athletic team is an excellent venue to teach teamwork.

If an individual title is more important to some that is only natural because we have a lot of self-centered people in this world.

[Oscar]

  Hmmmm!!Too deep for me.Seems Conseco is a lot bigger deal than Center Grove. Team is for the Fans and Revenue.Individuals looking for the next level better rack up the the Indvidual accomplishments.

[Boom444]

Wrestling is an Individual sport in which a team score is kept.  Much like Swimming....  When you are out there on the mat who is going to help you? the answer to this question is yourself not your teammates, you have nobody to put blame on if you lose it is all on you.  

 

Maybe this is becuase I came from a school that only cracked the top 20 teams a few times.   We did not have a great team concept and I wish we would have but it was all about individual.... We once had 8 guys ranked in the top 12 in the state and we didn't manage to make it out of team regionals.  We had 2 of our best guys not wrestle at the team regional becuase 1 was hurt and wanted to rest for ind. regionals and the other guy weighed in 8 pounds over.  

 

I think if your school has a "TEAM" tradition you are much more likely to care about the team Teams like  MD Perry and Franklin Wrestle together and rarely give up pins or even majors, and that is the reason they continue to do well year in and year out.

[Y2CJ41]

There is no individual that accomplished what they did without teammates, coaches or their parents.  While its only the individual that is on the mat, there are many people that helped get the kid where they are. 

[Trinedad]

There is no individual that accomplished what they did without teammates, coaches or their parents.  While its only the individual that is on the mat, there are many people that helped get the kid where they are. 

 

 

With this logic, then there are absolutely no individule sports. Every sport, or endeavor is a team project. So with this logic, why do we ever have any individule awards. I dont care if it is wrestling, golf, swimming, spelling, math bowl, chess, going to the bathroom, walking. With the exception of breating, and a few other bodily functions that are controlled automatically nothing we ever do is a result of individule, only the team. Oh wait, if it were not for parents, then the possibility of breathing and the other bodily functions would not be possible. So the next time you take a breath, or your heart beats, thank your team........

[Y2CJ41]

If you want to take it to that level then feel free to do so. 

[Trinedad]

Well, my wife says that I am very good at taking arguements to the ridicules levels, so there ya go.

 

 

Not to diminish the effect of team and coaches, and parents on how far a wreslter is able to go. If they dont have it in them, not amount of the other is gonna get them there. Everything anyoone does is a result of the individule. They must have the drive, determination, ability to compete at that level. All of that must be in place before the rest of this has any chance of actually helping.

[Oscar]

There is no individual that accomplished what they did without teammates, coaches or their parents.  While its only the individual that is on the mat, there are many people that helped get the kid where they are. 

 

This cuts both ways. I think Boom444 put it best. There is a place for both. I believe it starts with focus on what is in the best interest of  each one of the individuals involved and the quality of the team will follow. This is not easily done. Sometimes individuals are sacrificed to benifit the team and with that I have problem. The individual hard work of a wrestler can be squandered by a few lazy a's who won't put out for either team or individual success. On an individual level you get out what you put in without having to carry the slackers. You work hard, you win, you earned it!! If you look at Nationals Team these are all guys who work hard individually and come together as a team. They are also the guys who advance to the next level. This scenario is the best of both worlds. Like  I said before it starts with motivated individuals. Sorry Y2,  my son got better by going to Camps , clinics, national tournaments  and wrestling school (ie--Overtime in Ill). They were classmates not teammates. No offense intended here but most high school kids do not see the big picture, therefore it is difficult to depend on them in wrestling as a team concept. Hope this all makes sense. If not zing away.

[bigfan2001]

There is no individual that accomplished what they did without teammates, coaches or their parents.  While its only the individual that is on the mat, there are many people that helped get the kid where they are. 

 

This cuts both ways. I think Boom444 put it best. There is a place for both. I believe it starts with focus on what is in the best interest of  each one of the individuals involved and the quality of the team will follow. This is not easily done. Sometimes individuals are sacrificed to benifit the team and with that I have problem. The individual hard work of a wrestler can be squandered by a few lazy a's who won't put out for either team or individual success. On an individual level you get out what you put in without having to carry the slackers. You work hard, you win, you earned it!! If you look at Nationals Team these are all guys who work hard individually and come together as a team. They are also the guys who advance to the next level. This scenario is the best of both worlds. Like  I said before it starts with motivated individuals. Sorry Y2,  my son got better by going to Camps , clinics, national tournaments  and wrestling school (ie--Overtime in Ill). They were classmates not teammates. No offense intended here but most high school kids do not see the big picture, therefore it is difficult to depend on them in wrestling as a team concept. Hope this all makes sense. If not zing away.

 

I agree.  To some, wrestling is something they want to do for 3 months a year and for others it's a 12 months a year.  How many HS teams had their whole team competing at ISWA Folkstyle state a couple weeks ago?  I bet there were none.  How many kids were the lone representative of their HS team at ISWA Folkstyle state?  I bet quite a few.  If this is truly a team sport shouldn't they have all been there working to get better for next year?

[Y2CJ41]

There is no individual that accomplished what they did without teammates, coaches or their parents.  While its only the individual that is on the mat, there are many people that helped get the kid where they are. 

 

This cuts both ways. I think Boom444 put it best. There is a place for both. I believe it starts with focus on what is in the best interest of  each one of the individuals involved and the quality of the team will follow. This is not easily done. Sometimes individuals are sacrificed to benifit the team and with that I have problem. The individual hard work of a wrestler can be squandered by a few lazy a's who won't put out for either team or individual success. On an individual level you get out what you put in without having to carry the slackers. You work hard, you win, you earned it!! If you look at Nationals Team these are all guys who work hard individually and come together as a team. They are also the guys who advance to the next level. This scenario is the best of both worlds. Like  I said before it starts with motivated individuals. Sorry Y2,  my son got better by going to Camps , clinics, national tournaments  and wrestling school (ie--Overtime in Ill). They were classmates not teammates. No offense intended here but most high school kids do not see the big picture, therefore it is difficult to depend on them in wrestling as a team concept. Hope this all makes sense. If not zing away.

How good would your son have been if it was him and only him in the wrestling room everyday?  No coaches there to push him, no teammates there to wrestle with him, etc?  I find it hard to believe your son would have been half the wrestler without those people in his life. 

[kfcfanatic]

bigfan,

 

I agree with you 100% about what you have said.  But in doing that 12 months out of the year, you are also helping your team out tremendously.  It is your high school head coaches job to build the importance of the team.  In the end, if you instill the want and desire of everyone to go win a team state title, then they will do the work for the individual side as well.  It is your program leader's job (head coach) to build this.  I truly believe if they are not doing this, then they are not doing their job.

 

 

 

I think I should restate my stance after reading some of this.  I do believe in the importance of individual titles.  I would hope there isn't anyone out there who would sacrifice part of their efforts for an individual title.  What I am saying is that a team title is more important and that it is your head coaches job to instill that want into everyone on the team to do their job in ensuring that.  If you can get all of your team on board to doing the work that it takes to win team titles, then the individual side will take care of itself.

[listenup20]

Being a CP fan for many years, I always thought that the individual championship was the most important thing.  Of course, getting 3 state champs after 34 years was an incredible feat.  I've never attended the Team State Finals until this year (of course because CP always got beat at Team Semi-State), and I have to say it was one of the most incredible things I've ever witnessed in my life.  I can't even put it into words how great I felt for those boys and the coaches.  It is truly something that that "team" and those CP fans that were there will NEVER forget.

[Oscar]

From Y2--  How good would your son have been if it was him and only him in the wrestling room every day ? No coaches there to push him, no teammates there to wrestle with him etc. ?   I find it hard to believe your son would be have half  the wrestler without those people in his life.

 

Y2--

 

This could get a little too personal for open discussion. You asked three direct questions and I will attempt to answer without being mean spirited towards anyone.

The first question is a little presumptious. How good would he be if... ??  You have to have a High School Affiliation(Room) There will always be some good kids in every room. Would my son have gotten as good or better in Your Room? We will never know? My son would have likely done well because of his work ethic no matter what. That came from his family teaching going back several generations.

 

No coaches, no teammates again this is straying from the point. He would have had those in your room. Would he have been better off in your room with teammates that respected him and appreciated his work ethic .

 

Those people include many more people outside of the room who share in his success than the number in the room. He could have been better. Now that he is in college time will tell just how good he can get. Let us not forget he is pulling a 3.5 GPA as a collegiate athlete. I'll give credit for his brains to his mother. She always had to put up with those smelly workout clothes too. I take offense that you suggest that my son would not be half as good. You obviosly do not know me, my family or my son very well. You would have loved to have my son in your room.

 

Respectfully   Oscar  

 

[italianmom]

There is no individual that accomplished what they did without teammates, coaches or their parents.  While its only the individual that is on the mat, there are many people that helped get the kid where they are. 

 

This cuts both ways. I think Boom444 put it best. There is a place for both. I believe it starts with focus on what is in the best interest of  each one of the individuals involved and the quality of the team will follow. This is not easily done. Sometimes individuals are sacrificed to benifit the team and with that I have problem. The individual hard work of a wrestler can be squandered by a few lazy a's who won't put out for either team or individual success. On an individual level you get out what you put in without having to carry the slackers. You work hard, you win, you earned it!! If you look at Nationals Team these are all guys who work hard individually and come together as a team. They are also the guys who advance to the next level. This scenario is the best of both worlds. Like  I said before it starts with motivated individuals. Sorry Y2,  my son got better by going to Camps , clinics, national tournaments  and wrestling school (ie--Overtime in Ill). They were classmates not teammates. No offense intended here but most high school kids do not see the big picture, therefore it is difficult to depend on them in wrestling as a team concept. Hope this all makes sense. If not zing away.

 

I agree.  To some, wrestling is something they want to do for 3 months a year and for others it's a 12 months a year.  How many HS teams had their whole team competing at ISWA Folkstyle state a couple weeks ago?  I bet there were none.  How many kids were the lone representative of their HS team at ISWA Folkstyle state?  I bet quite a few.  If this is truly a team sport shouldn't they have all been there working to get better for next year?

 

I understand that Mater Dei had their team at ISWA Folkstyle State except of course the seniors.  If I remember correctly, there  were 83 wrestlers that registered at the Evansville Regional Weigh-ins site and 40-42 were Mater Dei wrestlers. 

[Oscar]

 

Listen to what Reece says about his team.  What do you think his reply to this question would be?  As a wrestler, there were times that I was absolutly sick when my teammates would lose.  There were times when I was such a nervous wreck that I couldn't watch them wrestle.  They were my teammates, my workout partners and my friends.  They pushed me, encouraged me, challenged me and comforted me.  Wrestling is a team sport, I don't care what you say, it's very difficult for an individual to succeed in this sport by themselves. 

 

Seems like I heard him say"We knew if we competed indvidually we would get points as a team." This is what he said when he was asked about the team compitition. Sorry, but at the high school level you will no find 14 truely dedicated individual wrestlers to form a dedicated team. Yes it is a coaches job to try to do this, but he is going to sacrfice individuals to do it and with that I have a problem. The team should be built around dedicated individuals. If team success can come out of that then I am all for it.  I think that is what happens at the college level as Reese stated. I love Team Wrestling so don't get me wrong. I just believe the order is individual then team.

[manvswild1]

60 percent individual after day one.

[manvswild1]

well over 60 percent believe how I do. 

[bbulldog152]

both is just as importants it's hard for an individual to reach full potential with out good wrestling partners. Alos it's hard to build a team with out good individuals. The off season is where you make the individuals better while in season you work on a team. every individual is different so it's the coaches job to figure out what style each individual would be best at and get them to work hard at those styles. once the season starts you have them funtion as a team by having them work together to make each one better. in most cases good individual=good teams. If you have just one good wrestler on a team the team won't be good and that individual won't be pushed to his highest potential. So if you try to make it so every individual reaches their full potential the team will reach it and vise versa. Yes I know there's some individuals that win state for bad teams or win state with out good wrestling partners, just think how good they would do if they had a teamate near their weight near their skill level.

[Oscar]

Being a CP fan for many years, I always thought that the individual championship was the most important thing.  Of course, getting 3 state champs after 34 years was an incredible feat.  I've never attended the Team State Finals until this year (of course because CP always got beat at Team Semi-State), and I have to say it was one of the most incredible things I've ever witnessed in my life.  I can't even put it into words how great I felt for those boys and the coaches.  It is truly something that that "team" and those CP fans that were there will NEVER forget.

 

I too share in the thrill of Team competition and have personally experienced it. But what you say really supports the individual side of this arguement. The thrill,excitement and $$$$$$$ will keep the team competition intacked. The coaches want it, the fans want it and the schools$$ want it. I am a fan so I want it, but at the same time recognize that wrestling begins with individuals. I am on the side of individual is first and from there you build a team. All NCAA conferences and the NCAA National Tournaments  are built on this system. This was the way it had been in Indiana High School Wrestling until about 15 years ago. The old sytem was built on " If you compete well individually you will subsequently do well as a team".  I would say I prefer that line of thinking. The problem arises when you compromise individuals to build a team. It is literally impossible not to. Team Vs Individual These two concepts are not compatable. Coaches build teams that do not permit them to look out for what is in the indiviuals Best interest. So whos interest are we serving ? The coaches, the fans and the schools ? If coaches are going to build teams,and I believe they should, they need to do a more complete and better job of protecting the best interest of individuals. If they can not do that then we should just go back to the old system. I believe it can be done, but it takes effort.

 

Respectfully  Oscar

 

[Oscar]

"Facts are Stupid Things"

 

There were 8 out of 309 teams at team state. With 24 wrestlers on each roster that equals 192 Individuals. I would guess 1/3 are seniors which means 64 are seniors and how many are going to college to wrestle? At last count of college signings a total of 16 and 3 came from the 8 teams that made it to state. Just stupid facts  ;D

[bigfan2001]

I was one of the minority that originally voted "equal".... but when thinking about my wrestler's personal decisions, and our coach's decisions throughout this past season, I think the "team" focus is more important.

 

Lets say - you have two wrestlers with above average ability who are a few pounds apart.

 

The heavier of the two could cut a few pounds and potentially have a stellar season.  However - if he did that - it could mean eliminating the smaller teammate from the line up - or forcing the smaller teammate into a heavier weight class where he woudn't have quite as much success.  If the focus were more on the individual - that heavier teammate would feel justified in being "selfish".  After all, it's an individual sport, right?  He'd shed the few pounds necessary to stay in the lower weight class, and have his highly successful season, potentially blowing everyone off the mat.  ("potentially" is the key word... since this is an "imaginary" scenario!) 

 

BUT - if the focus were more on the team and considering the abilities of ALL involved - that heavier teammate would stay where he's at - maybe wrestle "light" all year in the heavier weight class - and still have a great season.  Maybe he wouldn't blow everyone out of the water, but he'd still have a respectable season.  AND - the smaller teammate would also have a great season.  Both have a decent enough season that they both advance to semi-state.   AND with both wrestlers in the line-up they score more points for the team throughout the season.  The TEAM enjoys success because the talent of each member is considered, and placed in the best position for that team. 

 

Okay - so it's not an imaginary scenario.  My son wrestled a little light this year at 112.  Now - I'm not even saying he could have beat his 103 counterpart.  It was never even an issue.  Not even considered.  He knew the best lineup for the TEAM would be Mason Todd 103, Andrew Wilson 112.  These two boys wouldn't even consider wrestling off against each other.  In fact, it's almost like they're in a partnership - already in "cahoots" in the off-season, working together to make Pendleton's lower weight classes formidable for next year.

 

There obviously has to be a balance.  You put each individual "player" in the spot that's best for the team.... just like any other sport.    In sports, as in LIFE, you usually enjoy more success when you consider the good of the "whole", rather than just the success of one single individual.  Pie in the sky?  Maybe - but I like my rose colored glasses.

 

At the beginning of our season, Pendleton beat another school, which if any of us thought there might be a chance we could beat, we probably wouldn't have said it aloud.  As the dual progressed and Pendleton's score surpassed that of the other team, the cumulative excitement of the Pendleton fans, wrestlers and coaching staff began to build.  This was just an invitational - but winning that invitational was a huge deal to the team.  Now, as a fan, I couldn't begin to remember how each individual wrestler performed that day.  But I do remember that the TEAM won the "insurmountable" dual, and ended up winning that invitational.  And each wrestler got to enjoy the collective achievement of their team.

 

 

 

Nice story...but if he had a realistic shot at being a 103 lb. state champ I bet he would have challenged his teammate for the 103 spot.

[devildog47959]

plus manvswild1, you must have attended a school with a poor team if you have that mentality.  Build the team first and individual success will follow.  And instead of only having one good individual, you will have lots of great individuals.

 

Having went to a small school i can say that our team was never any good while i was in high school we had our handful of regional and SSQ but never had any success as a team so the guys on the team all cared about there individual records Wins,Pins,TD, ect.. and i was one of them. But after going back to watch my little brother wrestle things have changed. His Class had won 4 TEAM tournaments in his junior and senior years and placed pretty good in the Conference and after  seeing the smiles and energy in the TEAM after those wins i found myself a little jealous.. but happy for them. I as well as the guys i wrestled with would have loved to leave our mark and get a few trophies or banners for the school but instead it was ouR little brothers. So all i am saying is that if you grow up without ever having team success then all u will care about is Individual succes but once you taste some success as a TEAM i think it makes you hungrier for more so you take practice a little more seriously and do things a lil different then u did before and it brings you and your teamates closer together. At least it did with my brothers team and i have to say it was fun to watch and i wish i could have been a part of there TEAM.

[sparky]

There is nothing wrong with 2 wrestlers who are close in weight to both challenge for the spot they feel would benefit them the most for the season.  Many times have 2 wrestlers been very good friends but are close to the same weight, the coach and parents shold be encouraging them to wrestle off for the benefit of everyone.  The winner gets the spot and the loser goes up a spot, no hard feelings and they should still be friends.  Wrestling is an individual sport first always has always will be, sure team success is great if you are lucky enough to be a part of a good team but most wrestlers are not. 

 

Most wrestlers on most teams do not wrestle in the offseason and do not plan to wrestle beyond high school and there is nothing wrong with that, its just the truth. But for the wrestler that fell in love with this sport and works his butt off all year to get ready to compete at the next level he does that for himself, not his team not his school, himself...he stands alone!!  While he cannot prepare without partners and coaches there are many opportunities to find those, camps, clinics, private clubs, RTC's, national competitions if they want it the opportunities are there and that is outside of their team and school.  You can't tell me that it's a team sport first when the vast majority of wrestlers who excel push themselves to work harder and get better because they have an individual goal not a team goal. 

 

I don't think too many guys who are driving a couple of hours to get to different RTC sites, are paying for private clubs and lifting hard on the off-season are thinking to themselves that I should make these sacrifices to make my team better no they do it to make themselves better to stand on the top of the podium for the individual state title and if that helps his team then that is nice too       

[fire77]

i thought high school sports were to help teach some lessons to our children. working as a member of a team to accomplish a goal is a very important lesson for everyone unless you live in a cave. in all sports you "do the best you can do" at your spot, weight class, or event. this helps the team the most. in wrestling i have seen teams actually move wrestlers to other weight classes to help the team. i have never seen any wrestler complain. am i wrong? is there a bunch of wrestlers mad because they moved from their normal weight to help the team? if staying at their normal weight helps the team more that is what happens. individual accomplishments are important , but i don't believe they are more important than team work.

[Oscar]

WeeMom

 

Come back to the good side of the "force" do not be drawn to the dark side ;D ;D ;D

 

  Coaches are trying to fill slots on the team not looking at what is healthy or not for the kids , Or what is good for their continued development or future plans. Team focus  is good and a lot of fun but beware of the "Monkey Business" with weight shifting. Do not let anyone make you sons experience about weight cutting. That should be determined by two things growth development stages and Body Fat. Just be aware of the trappings that are a part of team building.

 

Respecfully Oscar

 

 

Look up in the sky its a bird ! No it's a plane ! No  It's Superman !!!!