Grenadier2012 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 How is that without knowing the whole truth? Plain and simple those states do not compete well at the national level. With your logic a state like Vermont would compete better nationally if they had classes. I would seriously beg to differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cewrestlingfan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I would love to continue this highly productive conversation, however I need to go pick up my kid from school and take him to Indianapolis to train at CIA. I hope we can find a solution that makes everyone happy some day. I will just settle for doing whatever makes my son happy for now. Would the school your kid goes to be classified as big or small??? Sorry couldn't resist. Our school is a big 4A football school. Almost 1500 students. A bigger school than most but much smaller than Ben Davis, Carmel, Center Grove etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 How is that without knowing the whole truth? Plain and simple those states do not compete well at the national level. With your logic a state like Vermont would compete better nationally if they had classes. I would seriously beg to differ. Lets see the number of teams in these states you mention Kentucky- 75 Vermont- 22 Delaware- 39 Hawaii- 56 Arkansas-44 Indiana- 309 California- 700+ New Jersey- 326 Texas- 209 I don't care how many classes a state has, I HOPE we are better than five states that have a combined 236 teams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 By just looking at the thread title and the number of posts in it, you'd of thought that there was alot of people actually interested in how much success Indiana wrestling had at Big Ten's... Until you started reading the actual posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 By just looking at the thread title and the number of posts in it, you'd of thought that there was alot of people actually interested in how much success Indiana wrestling had at Big Ten's... Until you started reading the actual posts. Lets settle this once and for all... Lets have all of the Class Wrestling Supporters : and all of the Classless Wrestling Supporters meet in an abandoned wharehouse and fight to the death. After that, there will be no more argument because one side will no longer exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfan2001 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 The majority of the high place winners at individual HS state have been high place winners at ISWA folkstyle state since they were young kids. Look at the ISWA book from 5 years ago and the top names are always the same. It is likely they are having more success because : 1. They have more natural ability 2. They have supportive parents 3. They have better coaches 4. They have access to great training partners at an academy It is possible to have all of these things and still go to a small school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Lets settle this once and for all... Lets have all of the Class Wrestling Supporters : and all of the Classless Wrestling Supporters meet in an abandoned wharehouse and fight to the death. After that, there will be no more argument because one side will no longer exist Well this wouldn't be fair, because classless supporters would out-man class supporters 3 to 1. On second thought... I LOVE THE IDEA!!! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 The majority of the high place winners at individual HS state have been high place winners at ISWA folkstyle state since they were young kids. Look at the ISWA book from 5 years ago and the top names are always the same. It is likely they are having more success because : 1. They have more natural ability 2. They have supportive parents 3. They have better coaches 4. They have access to great training partners at an academy It is possible to have all of these things and still go to a small school. So are you stating that a 103lber from Southern Wells has the same opportunity to go to state as a 103lber from Merrillville? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfan2001 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 The majority of the high place winners at individual HS state have been high place winners at ISWA folkstyle state since they were young kids. Look at the ISWA book from 5 years ago and the top names are always the same. It is likely they are having more success because : 1. They have more natural ability 2. They have supportive parents 3. They have better coaches 4. They have access to great training partners at an academy It is possible to have all of these things and still go to a small school. So are you stating that a 103lber from Southern Wells has the same opportunity to go to state as a 103lber from Merrillville? I don't know. Is the coach from Southern Wells as good a coach as David Maldonado? Is there a training academy near Southern Wells? Has the Southern Wells kid been placing at Kids state since he was 7 years old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadet130 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 granted Overtime is well worth the drive, but for a high school student to do 3 hours of driving (with his family or not) a night to get to wrestling practice isn't necessarily considered within reasonable driving limits, in my opinion. howe had to travel nearly 1.5 hours there and 1.5 hours back to get to Overtime. so to use the excuse that he was within driving limits of that club doesn't really make that much sense. it wasn't just down the street!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive2246 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 By just looking at the thread title and the number of posts in it, you'd of thought that there was alot of people actually interested in how much success Indiana wrestling had at Big Ten's... Until you started reading the actual posts. I agree. They should change the title to Yet another Class Wrestling Argument..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 The majority of the high place winners at individual HS state have been high place winners at ISWA folkstyle state since they were young kids. Look at the ISWA book from 5 years ago and the top names are always the same. It is likely they are having more success because : 1. They have more natural ability 2. They have supportive parents 3. They have better coaches 4. They have access to great training partners at an academy It is possible to have all of these things and still go to a small school. So are you stating that a 103lber from Southern Wells has the same opportunity to go to state as a 103lber from Merrillville? I don't know. Is the coach from Southern Wells as good a coach as David Maldonado? Is there a training academy near Southern Wells? Has the Southern Wells kid been placing at Kids state since he was 7 years old? Why don't you know? We have a single class system where EVERYONE is equal, no matter the size of the school, the coaching staff, the color of your singlet, EVERYONE is equal. Why are the big schools DOMINATING like they are? Why are they getting 3X more state qualifiers, placers and champions? Each school has 14 entries into the state tournament series no matter the size, yet the schools with greater size are getting their kids to state at a higher rate. Why aren't there coaches like Bill Sharpe or Bud Wright from small school powers in football in wrestling. Why do coaches like Jim Tonte, Joe Willmann, Cale Hoover, etc. move from smaller schools to a bigger one? Why wouldn't they stay at the small school level if everything was so equal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfan2001 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 The majority of the high place winners at individual HS state have been high place winners at ISWA folkstyle state since they were young kids. Look at the ISWA book from 5 years ago and the top names are always the same. It is likely they are having more success because : 1. They have more natural ability 2. They have supportive parents 3. They have better coaches 4. They have access to great training partners at an academy It is possible to have all of these things and still go to a small school. So are you stating that a 103lber from Southern Wells has the same opportunity to go to state as a 103lber from Merrillville? I don't know. Is the coach from Southern Wells as good a coach as David Maldonado? Is there a training academy near Southern Wells? Has the Southern Wells kid been placing at Kids state since he was 7 years old? Why don't you know? We have a single class system where EVERYONE is equal, no matter the size of the school, the coaching staff, the color of your singlet, EVERYONE is equal. Why are the big schools DOMINATING like they are? Why are they getting 3X more state qualifiers, placers and champions? Each school has 14 entries into the state tournament series no matter the size, yet the schools with greater size are getting their kids to state at a higher rate. Why aren't there coaches like Bill Sharpe or Bud Wright from small school powers in football in wrestling. Why do coaches like Jim Tonte, Joe Willmann, Cale Hoover, etc. move from smaller schools to a bigger one? Why wouldn't they stay at the small school level if everything was so equal? Re-read my post..better coaches do matter. Also, I believe Joe Willman left Yorktown because he had an opportunity to be the head coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 The majority of the high place winners at individual HS state have been high place winners at ISWA folkstyle state since they were young kids. Look at the ISWA book from 5 years ago and the top names are always the same. It is likely they are having more success because : 1. They have more natural ability 2. They have supportive parents 3. They have better coaches 4. They have access to great training partners at an academy It is possible to have all of these things and still go to a small school. So are you stating that a 103lber from Southern Wells has the same opportunity to go to state as a 103lber from Merrillville? Oh please, don't bring the 103 wt class into this mess! How about using the 145 wt class as the example! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teammills Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I wonder how many months a year Andrew Howe trains for wrestling???? At least 13, maybe 14... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Generals Dad Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I like to put a face with kids that would be taken out of a chance to wrestle the best competition in the state like Howe would have. I see kids like him have huge success and it is hard not to think about it like that. I look at as coaches saying they can't possibly compete against bigger schools when I think they should be telling kids if they work hard enough anything is possible. I didn't realize the argument for class wrestling was that it was feared it would ruin the other sports at small schools because kids must play more than one sport. I would disagree with this for a couple reasons - you aren't realisticly going to get more than a few kids at small schools who would commit themselves to focusing solely on wrestling. If you did, you would be the successful program at that school and should not feel ashamed of it. Do you only take kids who declare they aren't interested in basketball so you don't hurt that sport also, or do you tell kids with talent they would be better suited to wrestle? Maybe instead of having classes, kids should be separated by those that focus solely on wrestling in one tournament and have a separate tournament for kids who play multiple sports. Wrestling is an individual sport, so why punish a kid because the others play multiple sports? That or let the kids decide if they want to wrestle in the small school or large school tournament so they have the opportunity to compete at the level they want to. One alternative I think would make sense if you insist on having classes is to let the top 4 kids in the small school tournament compete in the large school state finals, sort of like they used to let some D2 champions into the D1 NCAA tournament. Again the kid would get a chance to compete against everyone. Finally, there isn't any going back after a class system is in place. The Indiana high school wrestling tournament is one of the greatest sporting events I have ever seen. It baffles me why you would want to chance screwing it up when something is that good. I realize everyone thinks they would be helping the kids, but I personally think it would be hurting them and the sport and that is why we all disagree. Indiana should be really proud of the quality of wrestlers it has with a legitimate shot at an NCAA championship. I didn't think I would ever see so many indiana kids at this level. Why change it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Lt. Dan...ICE CREAM!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 granted Overtime is well worth the drive, but for a high school student to do 3 hours of driving (with his family or not) a night to get to wrestling practice isn't necessarily considered within reasonable driving limits, in my opinion. howe had to travel nearly 1.5 hours there and 1.5 hours back to get to Overtime. so to use the excuse that he was within driving limits of that club doesn't really make that much sense. it wasn't just down the street!! but it was doable...A kid in Plymouth doesn't have that option. Overtime was 70 miles from Hanover, I plan on taking kids too some RTCs and open rooms this spring at about that radius. They are not Overtime but doing what we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I like to put a face with kids that would be taken out of a chance to wrestle the best competition in the state like Howe would have. I see kids like him have huge success and it is hard not to think about it like that. I look at as coaches saying they can't possibly compete against bigger schools when I think they should be telling kids if they work hard enough anything is possible. I didn't realize the argument for class wrestling was that it was feared it would ruin the other sports at small schools because kids must play more than one sport. I would disagree with this for a couple reasons - you aren't realisticly going to get more than a few kids at small schools who would commit themselves to focusing solely on wrestling. If you did, you would be the successful program at that school and should not feel ashamed of it. Do you only take kids who declare they aren't interested in basketball so you don't hurt that sport also, or do you tell kids with talent they would be better suited to wrestle? Maybe instead of having classes, kids should be separated by those that focus solely on wrestling in one tournament and have a separate tournament for kids who play multiple sports. Wrestling is an individual sport, so why punish a kid because the others play multiple sports? That or let the kids decide if they want to wrestle in the small school or large school tournament so they have the opportunity to compete at the level they want to. One alternative I think would make sense if you insist on having classes is to let the top 4 kids in the small school tournament compete in the large school state finals, sort of like they used to let some D2 champions into the D1 NCAA tournament. Again the kid would get a chance to compete against everyone. Finally, there isn't any going back after a class system is in place. The Indiana high school wrestling tournament is one of the greatest sporting events I have ever seen. It baffles me why you would want to chance screwing it up when something is that good. I realize everyone thinks they would be helping the kids, but I personally think it would be hurting them and the sport and that is why we all disagree. Indiana should be really proud of the quality of wrestlers it has with a legitimate shot at an NCAA championship. I didn't think I would ever see so many indiana kids at this level. Why change it? The argument for class wrestling sez we'll have more kids than we do now competing at that high, collegiate level. Speed up the improvement we are seeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I like to put a face with kids that would be taken out of a chance to wrestle the best competition in the state like Howe would have. I see kids like him have huge success and it is hard not to think about it like that. I look at as coaches saying they can't possibly compete against bigger schools when I think they should be telling kids if they work hard enough anything is possible. I look it as a fundamentally unequal system that most states have already rectified. I look at coaches at the college level whose only motivation would be to see better wrestlers say that a classed system is the way to go. I didn't realize the argument for class wrestling was that it was feared it would ruin the other sports at small schools because kids must play more than one sport. I would disagree with this for a couple reasons - you aren't realisticly going to get more than a few kids at small schools who would commit themselves to focusing solely on wrestling. If you did, you would be the successful program at that school and should not feel ashamed of it. Do you only take kids who declare they aren't interested in basketball so you don't hurt that sport also, or do you tell kids with talent they would be better suited to wrestle? It is only one of many many reasons to have classed sports. If you teach, coach and live in a small school community, I would hope you would support what is best for all programs and that is multi-sport participation and classes for the post season. Maybe instead of having classes, kids should be separated by those that focus solely on wrestling in one tournament and have a separate tournament for kids who play multiple sports. Wrestling is an individual sport, so why punish a kid because the others play multiple sports? That or let the kids decide if they want to wrestle in the small school or large school tournament so they have the opportunity to compete at the level they want to. If it is an individual sport then treat it as such and don't have any team post season. If your going to have a team award, class it like they have other team sports. (Same goes for track, X-country and swimming) Finally, there isn't any going back after a class system is in place. The Indiana high school wrestling tournament is one of the greatest sporting events I have ever seen. It baffles me why you would want to chance screwing it up when something is that good. I realize everyone thinks they would be helping the kids, but I personally think it would be hurting them and the sport and that is why we all disagree.? Other classed states have equal or better atmosphere at their state tournament so I think the chances of "screwing it up" are slim. Former D1 wrestlers, college coaches and the man who oversees wrestling for the NCAA say it would benefit the kids and the sport, not just me. No offense but I value their expertise over your "feelings." Indiana should be really proud of the quality of wrestlers it has with a legitimate shot at an NCAA championship. I didn't think I would ever see so many indiana kids at this level. Why change it? Reece Humphrey, Angel Escabedo, and Andrew Howe would be at the level they are regardless of whether we had a classed system or not. Why change it? 1. Because increased exposure of individuals earlier in their careers would likely get more Indiana wrestlers continuing on in college, returning home and coaching other wrestlers to higher and higher levels. I spent the weekend with a guy from Ohio who was a medium sized state runner-up as a junior in HS, got recruited and wrestled at a NCAA Div. 2 school, and was a national qualifier. In Indiana, he might have been a semi-state qualifier as junior, not been recruited until February of his senior year and been left with many fewer options to continue his education and wrestling. He now coaches the elementary kids in his school district. I'm guessing this is not an exception in Ohio. I dream that Indiana will someday have a pool of ex-wrestlers with this level of expertise coaching throughout the state. 2. A classed team portion of the state tournament will bring energy and excitement to wrestling at smaller schools that now have legitimate opportunities for post season success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Finally, there isn't any going back after a class system is in place. The Indiana high school wrestling tournament is one of the greatest sporting events I have ever seen. It baffles me why you would want to chance screwing it up when something is that good. I realize everyone thinks they would be helping the kids, but I personally think it would be hurting them and the sport and that is why we all disagree.? Other classed states have equal or better atmosphere at their state tournament so I think the chances of "screwing it up" are slim. Former D1 wrestlers, college coaches and the man who oversees wrestling for the NCAA say it would benefit the kids and the sport, not just me. No offense but I value their expertise over your "feelings." Because that is exactly 100% what they said.... The man who oversees wrestling said he liked that he wrestled in a single class, but can't argue against class wrestling. Eric McGill and Cashe Quiroga both said they liked classless wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaguy Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Let me throw out a few facts here that can some up the andrew howe portion of this thread so that we can move on: 1- Has a dad who was a state Champion in Ohio and a collegiate wrestler. 2- Wrestled from the time he was 5 or 6 years old. 3- Won multiple iswa state titles as he came through the ranks. 4- Also lost atleast 1 junior high match(i know b/c i saw it). 5- For years, drove 50-70 min. to Portage to train( 1 hour &40 minutes- 2 hours & 20 minutes total) 6- For years after that, drove 60-90 min. to Naperville to train at Overtime 3 or 4 times a week. (2-3 hours total) 7- Played other sports throughout his youth and even into middle school. 8-Quit those sports in order to specialize in wrestling 9-Goes to a school with less than 600 kids So to sum it up, he obvioiusly has some amount of natural talent to work with but has also made huge sacrifices in order to do what he has done. No he did not help other sports at his school by specializing. However, I'd be willing to bet he has gained more notoriety for his school this route than if he had continued participating in other sports and not specializing. What it eventually comes down to is if you would rather be a good/above average athlete in 2 or 3 or even 4 sports or specialize in 1 sport and attempt to become great? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadet130 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 5- For years, drove 50-70 min. to Portage to train( 1 hour &40 minutes- 2 hours & 20 minutes total) check the math. no pun intended! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Ratliff Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 If a few coaches on this board that have posted over 200o times, spent half of that time promoting their sport or helping their kids become better wrestlers, class wrestling complaints may not even be a problem at his school. His wrestlers must be upset that he feels they have very little chance against FW Snider, Huntington North or any other school corporation that has a population above 900. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaguy Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 5- For years, drove 50-70 min. to Portage to train( 1 hour &40 minutes- 2 hours & 20 minutes total) check the math. no pun intended! if he drives 50 minutes each way then thats 1 hour and 40 minutes total and if he drives 70 minutes each way then thats 2 hours and 20 minutes total. Atleast I think I am counting that right haha Either way point still stands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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