The Generals Dad

I had an idea that I haven't heard proposed before. I know the NCAA used to let division II wrestlers participate in the div 1 finals and think an expanded version of that could make it a lot more acceptable for all. I don't have it all worked out, but do you think a comprimise of some sort could be reached between people in favor of classes and not in favor of classes by doing something like this: 1. Split the state into 2 classes. 2. Small schools start their tournament 1 week early, or combine sectional and regional so they finish 1 week earlier than the large schools. 3. Top 4 kids in the small school tournament qualify to compete in the large school tournament as a 2 or 3 seed. 4. Large schools qualify 3 for state so you end up with 16 kids total after you add in the 4 qualifiers from the small school tournament. Benefits - Kids from small schools have a chance to compete against the large schools. Kids from small schools can still win a state championship. Two tournaments would probably draw more fans than a single state tournament since the best kids end up in final tournament. (Fans' interest remains.) Disadvantages: Large schools would have to give up their a 4th place semi-state qualifier to make room for the small school qualifiers. It would have to be sold to the IHSAA as a money maker, but I think it would be something would be fair and possibly get around some of the problems everyone has agreeing on what is wrong with the other's ideas. I apologize if this has been suggested before, I just thought it was something that would be a fair solution for everyone. Not sure what large schools would think of giving up a 4th place finisher. The hardest part would be getting the IHSAA to implement it correctly. Is this reasonable, or unacceptable, or just too much to ask for?

That's very suprising. Thanks for posting the info, I would have bet a decent amount of money that the north would have had more large schools than the south. Guess I am not always right after all.

1. I am not saying it can't help participation, but I am not asking to change the system. If this is a reason for changing the system, I think someone should have to back it up with how it affected participation after a change. 2. Just pointing out that if you want to make a big change in participation, you would be better off figuring out how to get kids to participate in the current system than believing classes will magically do trick. You will still be competing with basketball for kids after classes are in place. 3. I was suprised to see Ft. Wayne had fewer kids than the southern portion of the state. I always thought in football there were more schools in the north than the south and you could see Indianapolis and surrounding areas placed in the south to balance out the sectionals. Not saying it is incorrect, just suprising. 4. You are more trusting than I. I like the current tournament. I really think if you want to change the system, you are going to have to talk money with the IHSAA. If they are making more money since they classed basketball, I would guess it is inevitable that they will class wrestling. If they haven't, we are probably safe for a while. Not sure how they see the current tournament as a money maker. I think the state tournament pulls in a decent amount for them.

I would like to hear more about how class wrestling would help the small schools fill their teams. Is there any data that suggests that numbers increased significantly AFTER a class system was implemented - I don't think you can justify it by saying states with class wrestling have more participants unless those numbers grew AFTER the system was changed. I am not saying it isn't possible, but I would personally be suprised if that is what would get a kid at a small school to come out for wrestling. Again, just my personal opinion, but you don't have to promise a kid a state championship to get them to come out for wrestling - a letter, a conference championship, a sectional championship would seem to be more than enough to get a kid to participate. If coaches are relying on class wrestling to automatically increase the number of kids who participate to increase, I think that is being a little naive. What is a bigger problem for small school coaches, competing with basketball in state that has built its reputation on that sport or kids thinking they are at a disadvantage when it comes to winning a state championship. If you want to increase your numbers, I think you should start figuring out how to get your best athletes to wrestle instead of playing basketball and I don't think that involves classes. I would suggest growing some relationships with kids at a young age so they might want to be a part of your team when they get older instead of playing basketball. How do small sections of the state become better than the rest of the state? Do they have more large schools, or do they have coaches who are working together to increase the talent and skill of the kids in that area. Ft. Wayne is the second largest city in the state and it has been performing worse than the southern portion of the state where the schools are generally smaller. You can call me a caveman because I don't believe the IHSAA will implement the class system in a way that will benefit very many kids. I think the current tournament is great for the kids and the fans - remember the kids who are eliminated in the earlier rounds count as fans at the state tournament also. They see what kids from small schools can do when given the opportunity. I don't like the idea of changing to a class system because the tournament is currently outstanding and trusting a bureaucracy with little accountability like the IHSAA to do something right is a pretty big leap of faith. I see a lot of complaints from coaches and the coaches association with wrestle-backs currently, what makes you believe they will set up the classed tournament and listen to the coaches in the future?

I hate to see a good coach leave a small school, but wish you the best of luck. I am clearly against class wrestling and people are probably already sick of hearing me talk about it. The post about Michigan class wrestling made me laugh a little though. I live in Michigan and can honestly say there are a lot of kids who wouldn't make it to semi-state in Indiana placing at the state tournament. Our high school team in Michigan is really not very good and was a final four team in the team state tournament this year. If that is what your friend meant by turning around Indiana wrestling, I would whole-heartedly agree with him. I believe Michigan does better than Indiana at Fargo, but I think that it is due to having more kids and schools - NOT class wrestling. Just my 2 cents on what I have seen in Michigan.

I like to put a face with kids that would be taken out of a chance to wrestle the best competition in the state like Howe would have. I see kids like him have huge success and it is hard not to think about it like that. I look at as coaches saying they can't possibly compete against bigger schools when I think they should be telling kids if they work hard enough anything is possible. I didn't realize the argument for class wrestling was that it was feared it would ruin the other sports at small schools because kids must play more than one sport. I would disagree with this for a couple reasons - you aren't realisticly going to get more than a few kids at small schools who would commit themselves to focusing solely on wrestling. If you did, you would be the successful program at that school and should not feel ashamed of it. Do you only take kids who declare they aren't interested in basketball so you don't hurt that sport also, or do you tell kids with talent they would be better suited to wrestle? Maybe instead of having classes, kids should be separated by those that focus solely on wrestling in one tournament and have a separate tournament for kids who play multiple sports. Wrestling is an individual sport, so why punish a kid because the others play multiple sports? That or let the kids decide if they want to wrestle in the small school or large school tournament so they have the opportunity to compete at the level they want to. One alternative I think would make sense if you insist on having classes is to let the top 4 kids in the small school tournament compete in the large school state finals, sort of like they used to let some D2 champions into the D1 NCAA tournament. Again the kid would get a chance to compete against everyone. Finally, there isn't any going back after a class system is in place. The Indiana high school wrestling tournament is one of the greatest sporting events I have ever seen. It baffles me why you would want to chance screwing it up when something is that good. I realize everyone thinks they would be helping the kids, but I personally think it would be hurting them and the sport and that is why we all disagree. Indiana should be really proud of the quality of wrestlers it has with a legitimate shot at an NCAA championship. I didn't think I would ever see so many indiana kids at this level. Why change it?

"Walk Ons are what a coach loves. " I would make sure that if you are walking on a team, that you believe a coach will someday give you a chance to wrestle. Not sure if it is true at all D1 schools or smaller schools, but a lot of coaches love walk ons because they are live practice dummies that don't get a shot even if they win wrestle offs in practice. The coach is trying to build a program and will put his money on the kids he recruits most often - that's his job. Being "fair" may not be a priority. In my opinion, you should go to the best school you can get into for the academic program you want to pursue. If they have wrestling, walk on and roll the dice. If you walk on, realize you may have an uphill battle.

1. 4 champs from small schools - 2 from Union County, 1 from Culver Military, 1 from Winchester. 2. Only 2 of the largest 40 schools in the state of Indiana had champions - Crown Point and Portage. I think it would be a shame not to let a kid who could win a true state championship compete against the best competition. I am sure you could break it all down and show more kids from big schools placed and won, but give the kids from small schools a chance at the ultimate prize and they can achieve it.