NLCards Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Any indication as to why the LOSS of support? I understand that they are reluctant to listen to a membership that only represents 40% of the schools, but to go from 50% support, to 30% support, to 0% support seems very drastic. Why the switch?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaPorteCoach Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 BEST EXAMPLE FOR WRESTLE-BACKS!!!!!!!!! As a junior LaPorte's David Oviatt (140) won the LaPorte Regional.....his reward.....the loser of Eric McGill (Munster) and Brennon Cosgrove (Hobart) to get out of the Merrillville Semi-State. He got McGill and lost! McGill went on to win the 140 lb state title! As a senior LaPorte's David Oviatt (145) took second at the LaPorte Regional....his reward...he had to beat Brennon Cosgrove (Hobart) to get out of the Merrillville Semi-State. He lost and Cosgrove went on to win the 145 lb state title! Need I say more???????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naco228 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I just thought that the point of our state tournament was to find a "true" state champion. Should we really care about the qualifiers and 2nd-8th place finishers? thats not fair Y2 thats like telling yer one of your wrestlers, who you know is an awesome wrestler, gets beat by, lets say, the #1 kid in state in the ticket round, and you say "oh well, no biggie, we're just looking for the state champ anyways. so what if you dont make it" you dont think he'd be happy as hell to place in state? i know i would another good example is Brooks and Stevens in the ticket round. Anyone should know that Brooks could definitely have beaten Medina and Halsted, and was surely good enough to at least get 3rd in state i think the state champ is just as important as #'s 2-8 and now i just read your re-post to Oscar so, ok. my bad. but still.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champion Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Same thing happened to Cooper of Whiteland... lost to state runner up Hasseman at regionals... and he drew Mauer Mater Dei in the round to go... He Beat the kid that got 3rd at state that year 12-3. Next year lost an OT match at regionals and luckily drew Orrin Klienhenz in the round to go.. .losing 6-5 while Orrin went on to win a state title beating his kid in the finals by like 8. Wrestlebacks are definately needed but i think that time is a major issue becuase semi states run so long as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Well life's not fair now is it? We need to teach kids that life's not fair and you won't always get what you want. The kids that get beat should just work harder because they didn't work hard enough to win that one match. *Note: yet another response I keep hearing on the class wrestling discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naco228 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Well life's not fair now is it? We need to teach kids that life's not fair and you won't always get what you want. The kids that get beat should just work harder because they didn't work hard enough to win that one match. *Note: yet another response I keep hearing on the class wrestling discussion. well come on lol yer saying that if yer kid had Andrew Howe in the ticket round and he lost, you would tell him that he didnt work hard enough to beat him? im not saying yer gonna get a stud like that in every round i mean, Johnny Dillon beat Elvidge last year in the ticket round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Well, the argument that I hear that is very common is that small school kids and coaches don't work hard enough, have enough heart, determination, etc to be state qualifiers. So to the kid that loses to Howe... I will say that. *Note I'm playing devil's advocate and just restating things I keep hearing when advocating for class wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Well life's not fair now is it? We need to teach kids that life's not fair and you won't always get what you want. The kids that get beat should just work harder because they didn't work hard enough to win that one match. *Note: yet another response I keep hearing on the class wrestling discussion. There's a difference between needing to work harder and just having plain, old bad luck of the draw. Wrestlebacks can fix bad draws, class systems can't fix kids needing to work harder. Besides, would you agree it's a slap in the face to any state qualifier to suggests that he didn't work harder than the other wrestlers, or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooler Packer Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Why no wrestle backs you ask? Because Indiana is country and we take a little longer than the common folk. I wish we had them but, I'm over it. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLCards Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 It is what it is. Wow --- nothing like being content and accepting things as they are -- maybe that's why it takes us folk a little longer than others to progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Well life's not fair now is it? We need to teach kids that life's not fair and you won't always get what you want. The kids that get beat should just work harder because they didn't work hard enough to win that one match. *Note: yet another response I keep hearing on the class wrestling discussion. There's a difference between needing to work harder and just having plain, old bad luck of the draw. Wrestlebacks can fix bad draws, class systems can't fix kids needing to work harder. Besides, would you agree it's a slap in the face to any state qualifier to suggests that he didn't work harder than the other wrestlers, or no? Let me try one of your favorites... Well most states that have wrestle-backs are worse than us, why should we be like them? How about that one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Which state even have those kind of wrestlebacks? That's a new one for me data wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Most states that are worst than us have full wrestle-backs. Obviously wrestle-backs don't increase the quality of wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 While the IHSAA is not solely there to make money, it is a very large part of what they do. Until we can show them a way that wrestlebacks will put more money in their pockets, I see no way they go for such a proposal. We also need to figure a way around the arguemant that they give us for not allowing wrestlebacks. Their arguement has been how many times should a kid be allowed to get beat before we declare him out of the tourney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naco228 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 well theres full wrestlebacks at sectionals!! why not regionals and semistate ??? ??? ??? i just dont understand the difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I like the excitement/lose and you go home/pressure that our semi-states have.. Getting a bad draw sucks, but sometimes you get the short end of the stick in life and have to find a way to get it done when the odds are against you.. I like things the way they are when it comes to wrestle backs.. Win or Go Home... Makes semi-state soooooo dramatic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Let me try one of your favorites... Well most states that have wrestle-backs are worse than us, why should we be like them? How about that one? I never suggested wrestlebacks would make us better. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Let me try one of your favorites... Well most states that have wrestle-backs are worse than us, why should we be like them? How about that one? I never suggested wrestlebacks would make us better. ;D Y2 is just trying to get under your skin. Hit a nerve, you know. being sarcastic again. Man y2 is going to make me open up and some people will not be happy. Quote from Y2 "Everyone agrees we need wrestle backs" or at least he inferred this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Any indication as to why the LOSS of support? I understand that they are reluctant to listen to a membership that only represents 40% of the schools, but to go from 50% support, to 30% support, to 0% support seems very drastic. Why the switch?? The first thing people need to understand is that the people on the IHSAA Board do not think like Wrestling people. Most have never had any real experience with Wrestling. There are several reasons why the support for wrestlebacks has went from 50% down to 0%. one being that the Board has changed over those years. I feel another reason is that this Board is far removed from the Board when we did heavily lobbied them to have wrestlebacks at the Sectional by convincing a Principal (Mr. Clark who was then at Peru and now is at Columbus North) to propose them, and then having IHSWCA Representatives contact Board Members, and getting as many people as possible to email or call the Board Members. I remember sitting in Bobby Cox's office not long after wrestlebacks were approved and him telling me that the ONLY reason we got wrestlebacks was because we intimidated the Board Members with our mass onslaught. I told him that I was sorry that it had to be like that, and that I wished that the Board could have made the decision based on the information that was presented to them showing that wrestlebacks were a good thing to have. He did not feel that wrestlebacks were a good thing. That leads to the second thing people need to understand. Generally, the Board will vote whatever way the Commissioners reccommend. It is easy to figure out how the Commissioner feel about wrestlebacks. I honestly feel that the only way we will ever get the tournament we really want is to pressure the Board into it, but I am not sure there is anyone who is really willing to take the time to organize this endeavor. When we got the wrestlebacks at the Sectional I did alot of the work and pushed for meetings and such, I spent a decent bit of time on the road, on the phone, and emailing people to get them involved and to get them to work to win the fight. Before any of the work can be done somehow coaches have to get on the same page. When we got wrestlebacks at the Sectional everyone was in agreement that we needed them. Right now there seems to be no agreement on what we need. Anyone who has ever been at an IHSWCA Meeting can quickly see that consensus is not a thing we come to very quickly...if at all. It is fairly evident that we will not get wholesale change in the Tournament series so here is what I have heard in terms of what Coaches want: - some think we should go after wrestlebacks in the Regional first and build the tournament in stages. - some think we need them at the Semi-State from 1/4 Final Round - some think we need them at the State Finals from the 1/4 Final Round and other think we should have them from the get go. - a few think we do not need them at all at the Regional, but do need tham at Semi-State while others think we need them at Regional and not at Semi-State. - some do not care as much about wrestlebacks as they do about having a "class" tournament. - I am sure there are others. Until we can come to a fairly good consensus it will be hard to get anything done because the IHSAA Commissioners will use our lack of consensus against us at every turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Most states that are worst than us have full wrestle-backs. Obviously wrestle-backs don't increase the quality of wrestling. That would be like saying the reason Illinois and Ohio are better than us is because they have class wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 And the Two Words are ????? Class Wrestling. You are good Y2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I like the excitement/lose and you go home/pressure that our semi-states have.. Getting a bad draw sucks, but sometimes you get the short end of the stick in life and have to find a way to get it done when the odds are against you.. I like things the way they are when it comes to wrestle backs.. Win or Go Home... Makes semi-state soooooo dramatic.. I had this philosophy for many years. While I was wrestling I loved the drama of the ticket round. However, a couple of years after I started coaching, I realized that adding wrestlebacks would actually double that drama. Instead of just one ticket round, we would have two of them! The semi finals would essentially be a ticket round because those in the finals would be state qualifiers. Those who lose in the semis would have to wrestle another ticket round match, and it would be against someone who has just won to earn another opportunity. If run correctly, this should only add a half round to the day of wrestling, approximately 1 - 1 1/2 hours. At New Castle, the semi finals were wrestled on 2 mats. The other 2 mats could be used for the wrestlebacks from the quarter finals. After these semi finals and wrestlebacks, we would add another round of wrestlebacks (ticket round 2) which would only be 2 matches per weight class on 4 mats. I would gladly stay an extra 1 - 1 1/2 hours to ensure that the right kids get the opportunity to experience the state finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 GrecoCoach, also remember the consolation matches would be 1-2-2, so of the 28 extra matches being run, its almost like 23 matches being run in that round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Rex, Who decides on what the association proposes and what approach they take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 GrecoCoach, also remember the consolation matches would be 1-2-2, so of the 28 extra matches being run, its almost like 23 matches being run in that round. The wrestleback matches going on at the same time as the semi finals would be 1-2-2. However, if the IHSAA does what they did at regionals in the past, then the "qualifying" matches would probably be 2-2-2. Unless, of course, they are concerned about the time issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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