armdragking Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I was just wondering is there a point to repeatedly cutting and taking down an opponent that is obviously outmatched or inexperienced? I can understand wanting a wrestler to work on some different moves but there is sometimes where it gets to a point where it looks as if the dominant wrestler is trying to embarrass his opponent and to me this is not right. Sometimes a wrestler knows that they can not hold another to the mat so they stick with what they believe can get them the victory, this is fine to me. I just hope that coaches don't condone purposely embarrassing another fellow wrestler. When I coached my philosophy in this situation was to work a few take downs then work a pinning combination to finish the kid off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatSpeed Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 There is absolutely nothing wrong with cutting an opponet to A.) Score points for your team....B.) Work on your conditioning or C.) Try to hit a move in a match situation that you have been working on in practice.... Only when you can tell that the dominate wrestlers demeanor is to embarrass the lesser wrestler is it wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmarine77 Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 There is absolutely nothing wrong with cutting an opponet to A.) Score points for your team....B.) Work on your conditioning or C.) Try to hit a move in a match situation that you have been working on in practice.... Only when you can tell that the dominate wrestlers demeanor is to embarrass the lesser wrestler is it wrong I agree, but last I checked dont you get 6 points for a fall, and only 5 for a tech? Using that time to work on your all around game is smart and should not be looked on as a mean spirited act, until it gets to that point, then I hope that it would be dealt with quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatSpeed Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I'm saying in the event that the kid is "unpinnable" some would call it a "fish"? Or something like that? I don't know I'v never used the term...but yeah there are definately situations where getting a pin is out of the question which leaves the wrestler no choice but to work for a major or tech with his takedowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armdragking Posted December 23, 2008 Author Share Posted December 23, 2008 Speed I completely agree if a kid is unpinnable then you do what you have to do in order to get your team the win with as many points as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatSpeed Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Hmmm....well maybe if you agree you should throw me a "wahoo" as I'm pretty sure I will always be stuck in a cool point limbo between5 and -5 ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. RIght Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 i agree with combatspeed. There are times where a kid goes out there and tries not to get pinned to save team points. He'll just lay on his belly and try to stall. the point of cutting him is to try and catch him on his back while in a takedown or to work for the tech. Going out there and just hitting takedown after takedown someone is doing to embarrass someone, or to just be a jerk. Combat what happened to all your cool points? You were starting to get up there. I got you one right here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatSpeed Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 haha thanks man....I dunno I guess it's pretty easy to lose em when you're from Mishawaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmarine77 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 BAMMMM there is one for you speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ace2212 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I have changed my philosophy on this since I stopped coaching a few years ago. I think it is kind of like in football when teams are accused of running up the score. Bottom line, if you don't want to be embarrassed, get better. If a wrestler wants to go td let up 30 times, then go for it. I'm sure most won't agree with me, but that is ok. One thing I have noticed is that these teams that do this frequently, are unable to get pins. In the long run, this will hurt them as a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankingsGuy Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I personally see nothing wrong with cutting a guy time after time after time. Andrew Howe used to do this to guys and it made them extremely tired. He would then use this to his advantage to put takedown after takedown after takedown on the board. I'd venture to say that, YES, he was looking to embarrass guys. Isn't that part of the fun of wrestling, to completely demoralize your opponent? If we are supposed to care about the other guy's feelings, then this isn't a sport I want to be a part of any longer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Bottom line, if you don't want to be embarrassed, get better. . Why then is it not considered an embarrassment for the "superior" wrestler to not be able to pin the fish? Maybe he should work on getting better at pinning combinations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regionrat1 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I always thought dat cutting and chsoing neutral hurt da big T-shirts in college. His first 3 years he struggled to turn some one and to get away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 In most cases when a wrestler is superior to another, he will eventually get the fall. I will say that in a match of two pretty equal wrestlers, I always enjoyed pushing the guy until you could take him down at will, eventually "breaking him". To me it is simply making a statement in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinl Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 There seems to be several points of view on this. What does everyone feel is an appropriate number of times to take down and cut an opponent before it is excessive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ace2212 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Just because a wrestler or coaches chooses to go td lu, that doesn't mean that the "superior" wrestler isn't good at pinning. Some do it to achieve individual goals, in conjunction with team goals. The other wrestler doesn't need to be a fish to do this. Possibly the best college match I have seen involve Zadich break another ranked wrestler, I wouldn't necessarily call him a "fish". This happens at the hs level as well. Ultimately, it is the wrestlers and coaches decision how to win a match. I believe too many people think the goal is to get a pin, I believe it is to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankingsGuy Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 There seems to be several points of view on this. What does everyone feel is an appropriate number of times to take down and cut an opponent before it is excessive? As many as it takes until the other guy is completely demoralized and the clock is out of time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlevito Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I always encourage my wrestlers to cut opponents. When I know it is going to be someone that doesn't stand any chance, I make a minimum of 3 DIFFERENT takedowns. Tell them to work on a takedown that they don't hit as often, then look for the fall. When it comes to a wrestler that may be a good match, I also encourage cutting them if they feel confident that they will again take them down. It can be a great confidence booster for the offensive guy. To be able to dominantly take an opponent down can easily break the opponent making it easier to get a turn or catch him in a fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. RIght Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Everyone has their own opinion on this, but when I was in high school i would of been chocked (literally) by my coach if i went out there and tried to embarass my opponite and beat him 30-15. I was just taught that if I could get a pin then work to get one if not then work for the teck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 If you can get a takedown within the first 30 seconds, why not build a lead and get a couple more? I certainly would rather go into the second period up 6-2 than 2-0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Some of this would stop if Indiana would institute riding time. I have no problem with 3 or even 4 times, but when someone does it 10 or more times then I think they have crossed the line. You may differ, and that is ok, but I do think that it can go too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlevito Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 If you can get a takedown within the first 30 seconds, why not build a lead and get a couple more? I certainly would rather go into the second period up 6-2 than 2-0. Ditto...such a mental aspect to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 If you can get a takedown within the first 30 seconds, why not build a lead and get a couple more? I certainly would rather go into the second period up 6-2 than 2-0. Why not try to turn him? Sometimes that first takedown may be the only one you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 If you can get a takedown within the first 30 seconds, why not build a lead and get a couple more? I certainly would rather go into the second period up 6-2 than 2-0. Why not try to turn him? Sometimes that first takedown may be the only one you get. If I get three takedowns in the first 1:30, I can work a turn the last 30 seconds. What good does it do to go out and pin a guy in 30seconds if your goal is to be at the state level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlittlejohn Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 If it is that much of an embarassment or the coach fears that his kid may be demoralized from being dominated, remember, a coach or wrestler may have the match stopped and default at anytime during the match. Maybe this will change a wrestler's approach; once he losses an opportunity to add to his fall total or even a consecutive fall streak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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