ace2212

Who the true champ is, not how. Dang iPad!

Wildcat, have you ever heard of track, cross country, swimming, golf, or tennis? They all have "retries" by your definition. I'm not saying I think we should or shouldn't have wrestlebacks, just we need to stop making decisions based on "it's cooler for the fans". Same argument people use against class wrestling, "we wouldn't know how the true champ is and there wouldnt be a spotlight or snow cones". It's hard to believe someone can actually think a random draw is the most fair way to put a wrestler in a better or worse situation to qualify for state. I do agree though, it is the best round of wrestling by a mile, just not certain it's the best thing for our sport.

Hard to believe an ethics question has to be discussed about wrestling coaches.

Coach Harmon and any other coach blaming FB coaches for not encouraging kids to wrestle, Do you lift your kids in-season and out? If not, then don't complain about their lack of encouragement to wrestle. A FB coach keeping his job depends on the team winning, and that won't happen without strong kids. FB coaches can't allow kids to take three months off from lifting, plus wrestling coaches encouraging weight cutting. If wrestling coaches encourage in-season weight lifting, discourage cutting weight, and runs a solid program, very few FB coaches would discourage kids from wrestling. I never had issues getting upper weights to wrestle because of the things mentioned above and the FB coaches were always supportive.

Bellmont is not a small school. EMD (is a small school) and Roncalli (fairly large) are both parochial so not a very good example, this is why they constantly discuss a +1 for football. Parochial schools do have a significant advantage over public schools whether they care to admit it or not, and I don't think recruiting is one of those reasons. I believe at this point, that has little to do with their successes. Delphi is one specific example that works. There are always exceptions to the rule, but it they are not the norm. Y2 and Karl constantly site examples of how classing would actually improve wrestling, can someone site facts of classing being bad for the sport or anything other than "it's cool" or "you don't know the real champ" against classing. I know you will argue that it is their opinion that it won't grow the sport, and I can understand that, but siting the examples everyone gives against classing means little to the growth of wrestling. Stop using emotions, at least use logic for your argument.

While I am not a Bobby Cox fan, why is he or the IHSAA getting blamed for this situation. It is not their responsibility to call to check on whether a team is going to show. I think that is basically assumed. This thread is about being unprofessional and unethical. These actions and others like it is why they don't listen to the coaches. Stop complaining about the IHSAA not listening and ask what can we do to make them. I would start with doing what is best for the sport ethically and professionally: dressing appropriately (i acknowledge this is smaller than the others listed), not taking a fall and acting like there is a serious injury, showing up to the team series (I personally don't like it, but would show with a full team if given the opportunity), wrestling your varsity lineup in the team series, injury defaulting because you know a draw, trying to get you kid eligible for tournament serious when they made a major mistake, etc... Also, get new blood in the association, top to bottom. Karl brings up a good point, maybe several things need to get blown up, and then start fresh. Sometimes, its easier to bulldoze and rebuild from the ground up. We are trying to put a bandaid on a severed head! If you want to consider the above as being judgmental, that is fine. As a leader, deal with it. I get judged every day in my job, cussed at, threatened to be sued, yelled at, etc. It's part of it, if you don't like being judged, remove yourself from a leadership position. I'm sure the coaches that did the above things all preach daily to their athletes to do the right thing, then turn around and model poor ethics. It has to stop if we want to be dealt with as professionals by the IHSAA. Coach D. Snyder, I liked your comments on one of the other posts regarding classing and 103's. It is refreshing to see a big school coach get the big picture. I'm not sure I had the insight like you until I coached in both situations.

I have read through all these posts about class wrestling, and as of yet I fail to find any reasons to stay with a single class system that is actually beneficial to kids. They all have to do with emotions (we know the real champion, under the lights, better atmosphere, etc...), while Y2 and Karl cite specific reasons, not emotional responses/personal gratification, as to why they believe class is better for wrestling as a whole. I understand that these emotional reasons helped form your opinion against class wrestling, but we need to look at what is best for kids and the sport. Usually, decisions are backed by facts and data, and as of yet, I haven't seen any refuting that class wrestling would benefit the sport. Could someone please provide this evidence.

Buscowrestling, My comments may/may not have been intended to be disparaging toward Carroll's coaching staff, but there are different degrees of coaches, some are bad, some are good, some are great, and IMNSHO, I believe Whitko's coach is better. That is not to say that Voight is bad, just Koontz (sp) is VERY GOOD, as was Randy Kearby. I'm sure Tom Brands could improve the Garrett program, I'm guessing Y2 would agree with that statement. Coach Etzler wasn't a bad track coach, but Coach Dock has certainly taken it to new heights. Look at the Snider program, while Ester was there and compare to now. I also did not say or imply whether or not you are doing a good job. First, you do not need my approval, and second it is not my job to evaluate you or the direction of the Busco program. The only thing I said was that you had only been a head coach/in the area for 2 years (I know I still had a LOT to learn my second year coaching) and that Y2 puts in a ton of time. Many class wrestling opponents site "Just work harder". My point was nobody works harder than him and many of his kids. I'm also not sure about your post regarding the BFS work and such, kind of confused me as to the direction or point you were making there.

While I do not have the time to debate like Karl and Y2, I will stoop to there level one time, but I'm glad you at least admit the one point. Are you saying that you don't believe that having a better team, helps individuals get better. For example, I sucked my first two years in high school, but as a result of being JV and having success in JV matches while getting pounded on in the practice room, I got better. I had a good Junior year because I still had practices partners on a daily basis. As a senior there really weren't wrestlers in the practice room that challenged me on a daily basis, and my performance in matches suffered. I worked as hard as I could, but I didn't have people in the room that could really challenge me. That is one example where the bigger schools make a difference vs. a smaller school. "You ain't tough, you have class wrestling"

Pin2win1, you really need to talk to a math guy. The larger the sampling, the closer to the actual value you will get. Look at a coin for example. Flip it 10 times, you may get 8T,2H's. Does this mean the coin was weighted or unfair? Flip it 40 more times, now you have 29T,21H. The more times you flip the coin, the closer you will get to 50%. Same applies for polls. The more people polled, the closer you would get the the theoretical value, in your example 35%. Buscowrestling, you are a fairly new coach in the area, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt here, but if you put Whitko's coach at Carroll or Homestead for 3-5 years, there is little chance Garrett and Whitko would compete with them. If you could clone him, put him at Carroll and Whitko at the exact same time, Carroll would DOMINATE!!! If you don't believe that, you have much to learn. You are in a good situation at Busco because of the other coaches you work with outside of the wrestling program. They are phenomenal coaches and avid wrestling supporters, maybe that is part of why you like it there. When you put in the time that Y2 does in the off season with your kids, then he will probably listen to your points. I have coached at both a large school and a small school, both of which had moderate success, both as a team and on an individual basis. I can tell you this, our best team at the small school (which would have competed with most school in the state that year) would have been smashed by our average teams when I was at the big school. The year after the best season in school history at the small school, we lost 20-25% of our wrestlers (not counting ones that graduated). That is the life of a small school, that doesn't typically happen at large schools. If it does, there is a ton more depth, so you reload, not rebuild. Y2 and Karl have never made excuses for their kids losing and they work harder than anyone I know for kids,not their own personal gain or ego. I believe that is why they are passionate and a little irritated when someone says "Just work harder" or the best one "We wouldn't know the REAL champion or have the SPOTLIGHT". I'm not sure those two reasons for classless wrestling have anything to do with doing what is best for kids. I will say though that I don't agree with them that a lot/many/most (whatever word you want to insert) go from small school to larger schools for pure wrestling reasons - hope I'm not interpreting incorrectly. However, I will say that larger schools typically pay more, which would account for some of the movement. Just acknowledge large schools have a competitive advantage over small schools. Even if you don't agree with class wrestling, at least acknowledging this FACT (not opinion) would give you credibility to this debate. To deny this fact is absurd. And lastly, I'd be happy to meet Karl and Y2 face to face, I can take you both. "You ain't tough, you have/want class wrestling"

Because he wanted to be like his mentor, adviser, and role model!

I think Mishawaka would beat all of the higher nationally ranked teams. To qoute myself "You have class wrestling, you ain't tough".

I suggest knee pushups and 52 card pickup.

I think it is critical for them to move up when they start eating more than a carrot for lunch and dinner and drink more than a shot of water per day.

Those of us that have been going to Carroll for years, realize adequate size has nothing to do with it!