CLASS WRESTLING!!

[navy80]

I am NOT in favor of Class Wrestling and I'll tell you why.  I may be selfish but, anyways

 

4 out of 5 losses were to 4A and 5A schools.  Other loss was to 3A school.  In my opinion if wrestling was classed, I would have placed at state.  So now for Indiana wrestling to be classed it darn near everyone can say, I made it to state or placed at state.  Now if it help get number back in the room I'm for it.

 

I also think class wrestling makes a state weak.  If your from Indiana and placed at state, odds are you can place at any state in the nation.

 

When I was stationed in Maryland I volunteered with the local wrestling teams.  Chopticon High were state champs that year.  If I remember right Maryland has 1A and 2A only.  I was good friends with there 152 pounder and he was a state qualifier.  I could beat him rather easily.  They had a 119 state champ that I could beat, although I was 30 pounds heavier.  ;D  Now an average Indiana high school wrestler who never made it to State and Semi state only once is competing and beating Maryland state qualifiers and placer.  I dont know if I making sense but what I'm really saying is NO to class wrestling

[AJ]

We need the The Wise Owl, The Ancient Elder........

 

His self proposed ban was from the old board.  He should be good to go on this board.

[KarlHungus]

Ever hear the saying, keep your friends close and enemies closer!  

 

The moderators will not delete or taint posts that are just opinions on issues such as this that we don't agree with.  Of the moderators, though I think more are for single class wrestling... but of course the people with the most power are the Admins!

 

I prefer the saying, "It's better to have a camel inside your tent taking a wiz out, then outside the tent taking a leak in.

[Y2CJ41]

I am NOT in favor of Class Wrestling and I'll tell you why.  I may be selfish but, anyways

 

4 out of 5 losses were to 4A and 5A schools.  Other loss was to 3A school.  In my opinion if wrestling was classed, I would have placed at state.  So now for Indiana wrestling to be classed it darn near everyone can say, I made it to state or placed at state.  Now if it help get number back in the room I'm for it.

 

I also think class wrestling makes a state weak.  If your from Indiana and placed at state, odds are you can place at any state in the nation.

 

When I was stationed in Maryland I volunteered with the local wrestling teams.  Chopticon High were state champs that year.  If I remember right Maryland has 1A and 2A only.  I was good friends with there 152 pounder and he was a state qualifier.  I could beat him rather easily.  They had a 119 state champ that I could beat, although I was 30 pounds heavier.   ;D   Now an average Indiana high school wrestler who never made it to State and Semi state only once is competing and beating Maryland state qualifiers and placer.   I dont know if I making sense but what I'm really saying is NO to class wrestling

 

Adding 16 or even 8 more state qualifiers will dilute what it means to be a state qualifier, but in the end people know who the best of the best are.  Many times the best wrestlers from different divisions would meet up at tournaments during the season or in the offseason tournaments.  Also, just saying you placed at state in Indiana doesn't mean much compared to other states.  Just because we have a single class system doesn't make our wrestlers tougher.  Indiana is a mid-tier state right now when it comes to wrestling.  We are right around the 8-12 mark depending upon what year it is.

 

In order for wrestling in Indiana to grow, we need more kids to wrestle.  Simply put, more kids wrestling will make the quality better.  Just as the more lottery tickets I buy the more winners I would have.  One way I believe that would increase participation is to go to a two class system for both the individual and team state series.  Three classes would be alright, but in my mind, ideally we would still have a solid tournament with two classes.

 

[AJ]

Class wrestling is not the only thing that can make wrestling grow.  Your school is a perfect example.  Garrett is growing and is becoming a stronger wrestling school.  You are producing quality teams and state placing level wrestlers.  And this was done without class wrestling.  Yorktown grew to their high power status without class wrestling.  There are other examples as well. We can grow without class wrestling.

[mtv2112]

I think other sports are seeing the same problems as far as kids giving up on playing at the high school level.  I only have anecdotal evidence, but I have seen and heard, over the last few years, a lot of kids quitting sports so they can get a job, run with the pack, or whatever.  Many sports are starting kids at earlier and earlier ages and when the kids get old enough to make their own choices, some quit.  A lot of teachers that I know say kids are different now.  They have more stuff to do and more opportunities in non-sport activities.

 

That being said, several problems, in my opinion, lead to wrestlers quitting and/or low numbers.  In no particular order . . .

 

1.  Tough eighth grade kid gets to his freshman year and quits because there is not a starting spot.

 

2.  Junior kid is wrestling, but not varsity.  He only gets a few outings and quits.  Why work like hell for a handleful of matches.

 

3.  Sixth through eighth grade opportunities are inconsistant among school districts.  Eligibility rules are scattered (i.e. is 6th grader a grade school or junior high wrestler).  Middle school/junior high is a bridge between club wrestling and high school wrestling in a lot of places.  It seems that schools start/end their seasons differently.  It should be more consistent.

 

4.  Young kids get scared off by coaches that try to "condition" them.

 

5.  Parents scared off by lack of knowledge or fear of the unknown.

 

6.  Specialization - kids stick to one sport

 

7.  Junior high basketball - sucks kids out of wrestling programs and then dumps them when the high school teams can't handle that many kids.  (i.e. "A" and "B" teams for sixth, seventh, and eighth grade is a lot of players, minimum 8 per team gives you 48 kids.  High school freshman, JV, and varsity has maybe 28 kids total.)

 

 

[TripleB]

AJ,

  You just got Wahoo'd!

[D-train]

For the record:

 

I am in favor of a classed Team Tournament.

 

I am opposed to a classed Individual Tournament.

 

i think that would be an acceptable compromise.

[D-train]

hey mtv2112.  is that a rush reference?  if so, awsome.

[mtv2112]

hey mtv2112.  is that a rush reference?  if so, awsome.

 

Yes, 2112 is the Anthem that leads the Working Man, via a ride in his Red Barchetta, to Xanadu.

 

You are the first person to ever notice and I have used that handle, in various forms, for years.

[davit]

Why will the IHSAA not go with what AJ mentioned earlier?

 

Class the Team tournament, and keep the Individual the same!

 

Classing a team tournament won't "taint" anything.  Ask any 1, 2, or 3A school if their classed state title in football or basketball doesn't mean as much to them.  They will get kids out the next year because they have a chance to win a state title, or at least get to the show.  A classed team tournament will only create more opportunities for the over all sport of wrestling.

 

Keep the individual the same!!!

[AJ]

AJ,

  You just got Wahoo'd!

 

Thanks.  It is my only one, and I am sure they will be far and few between.

[tspray1]

I am for class on the team side of things.  Im not sure about the  indvidual side.  I also like the 1 class for the ind tournament

[AJ]

Why will the IHSAA not go with what AJ mentioned earlier?

 

Class the Team tournament, and keep the Individual the same!

 

Classing a team tournament won't "taint" anything.  Ask any 1, 2, or 3A school if their classed state title in football or basketball doesn't mean as much to them.  They will get kids out the next year because they have a chance to win a state title, or at least get to the show.  A classed team tournament will only create more opportunities for the over all sport of wrestling.

 

Keep the individual the same!!!

 

Simple put, the IHSAA does not want to put that much effort into wrestling.

 

[NickS]

One way of adding participation, at least at the varsity level, is to eliminate the 103 lb. weight class and reorganize the weight classes.  How many schools can actually field a 103 lber?  Y2 had some data on the old board that showed the weight class being forfeitted like 25% of the time I think?  Change the weight classes to something like: 112, 118, 124, 130, 136, 142, 148, 154, 160, 168, 176, 189, 215, 285.  The real change would be splitting 171 into 2 weight classes, 168 and 176 lbs.  Which would free up a lot more spots than having 103 lbs.

 

I'm also with AJ on that I'm not sold on the belief that class wrestling, at the individual level, won't increase the quality of wrestling in Indiana.  Look at the best wrestling states in the country.  Are they the best because they're classed or because they have strong wrestling culture.  Personally, I lean towards the latter.  One of the arguments I hear for a 2 class system is because it creates more participation at the State Tournament.  Well duh, since there would be double the State Qualifiers.  You could achieve the same goal by increasing the weight class participants from 16 to 32 while staying a one class system.

 

If there's an instance that I feel class wrestling would benefit is at the team level.  There's this mindset that wrestling is an individual sport and should be left at that.  Well it is in the since it's you and you're opponent.  But I feel we got it wrong that way on a marketing standpoint (I'm kind of going into college now).  In my opinion, fringe fans don't gravitate to certain sports because of just the individuals.  Tim Tebow is good, but I would watch Florida not him.  Tyler Hansbrough is good, but I watch North Carolina not him.  So why should we expect any difference with wrestling?  NCAA Finals is the "BIG MOMENT" for wrestling to showcase itself on ESPN.  You think people (not the die-hards) will keep watching just Coleman Scott, Angel Escobedo, Jordan Leen, or the great Brent Metcalf.  No, IF they were to stay and watch, it would be for the team.  Sorry, but most of the time the team title is locked up by the finals.  On top of that, you only see a couple of those team title members in the finals maybe.  We need to market the team, not the individual, if we want wrestling to grow.

[Y2CJ41]

I'm also with AJ on that I'm not sold on the belief that class wrestling, at the individual level, won't increase the quality of wrestling in Indiana.  Look at the best wrestling states in the country.  Are they the best because they're classed or because they have strong wrestling culture.  Personally, I lean towards the latter.  One of the arguments I hear for a 2 class system is because it creates more participation at the State Tournament.  Well duh, since there would be double the State Qualifiers.  You could achieve the same goal by increasing the weight class participants from 16 to 32 while staying a one class system.

 

The thing is you are still going to get more kids from big schools at state.  Right now approximately 75% of the state qualifiers are from big schools.  That is the data from the past 11 years.  Adding another 16, 8, 4, etc qualifiers will just mean 1 out of 4 of those qualifiers will be from small schools.  So if you add 16 qualifiers you get 12 more from big schools and 4 more from small schools.  I would rather have 12 more from small schools and 4 more from big schools.

 

[kevinl]

I concur with AJ and many others on the board.

 

[move]VOTE NO ON INDIVIDUAL CLASS WRESTLING[/move]

 

We are a 2A school and going to class individual wrestling would not put one single wrestler in the room.  My son is a great ambassador of the sport in the school.  He has had significant results in getting kids in the room.  He has not had a single guy turn him down because he would have to compete against 3, 4, or 5A wrestlers to get to state.

 

There are definite disadvantages for the individual wrestler on a small team.  Obviously quality wrestling partners are hard to come by, but for the dedicated wrestler there are ways to improve.

 

Wrestle in the off season.  Wrestle at State and National Tournaments.  Join a Team Indiana team.  Then take what you learn back to the room.  

 

BTW we have not had to forfeit 103 for as long as I have been around our program and that has been over 10 years.

[tspray1]

I don't have to ff 103 I have to ff 119 and 125 ... which is crazy.. I have coached Pioneer for 9 years we have won a few sectional championships and I have never fft 103.  I have fft 119 125 and 140... 103 isn't the only problem its numbers.  We have had a feeder system at the youth level for the 9 years I have been there, last year we had two state champs in teh folkstyle state, one schoolboy, one midget with a few other place winners at the cadet lvl.

 

We have also had 5 or 6 wrestlers on "team indiana" over those 9 years, you don't join those teams you earn the right to be on those teams.  I have coached those teams before.

 

im sorry you can't convince me that being in a single class state makes us better against other states because there are so many class states that thump us yearly. when was the last time Indiana took first in nation at senior nationals?  1995?  Was it first I can't rem.

 

[NickS]

The thing is you are still going to get more kids from big schools at state.  Right now approximately 75% of the state qualifiers are from big schools.  That is the data from the past 11 years.  Adding another 16, 8, 4, etc qualifiers will just mean 1 out of 4 of those qualifiers will be from small schools.  So if you add 16 qualifiers you get 12 more from big schools and 4 more from small schools.  I would rather have 12 more from small schools and 4 more from big schools.

 

That's all well in good if your goal is to just get more state qualifiers for the "little guys."  Hypothetically speaking, how's being a division 2 state champion going to improve the wrestling skills of Wresler X vs. being a single-class state 8th placer?  Wrestler X is still going to have the same workout partners, coaches, and schedule either way.  Only thing that changes are his "achievements."  Like I've stated before Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, California, New Jersey are strong wrestling states because of culture.  Their state associations and high schools are probably MUCH MORE dedicated to their wrestling programs compared to Indiana.  So what good would it do for a small high school to have more state qualifiers when that high school doesn't give their wrestling program any recognition?

[NickS]

im sorry you can't convince me that being in a single class state makes us better against other states because there are so many class states that thump us yearly. when was the last time Indiana took first in nation at senior nationals?  1995?  Was it first I can't rem.

 

When did I ever state that single-class makes us better than the states with multi-classes?  I'm insinuating that it boils down to CULTURE, not classes being the reason we can't compete with the top tier states.  Going to a 2-class system would result in us getting thumped by Ohio just the same as staying with a single-class system.  I'm not saying we should just give up and be complacent with being around the 10-15 ranked state.  I'm just saying that in order to get better, we have to change the culture.  Which is a steep challenge considering the state we're in.

 

On the weight class topic.  Most schools are going to have their difficulties filling certain weight classes.  Some schools are going to be able to fill 103 consistently.  But if you look at the overall numbers, 103 is BY FAR the toughest weight class to fill.  Most of the time, it being filled by underclassmen on top of that.  The numbers that I've seen suggested by Y2, numbers I've looked at from Fargo and high school nationals has proven this to be the case.

[kevinl]

We have also had 5 or 6 wrestlers on "team indiana" over those 9 years, you don't join those teams you earn the right to be on those teams.  I have coached those teams before.

 

I in no way wish to minimize the effort to get on Team Indiana, but you have to get out there if you want to make the team.  My son started wrestling in 8th grade and has been on the SB Indiana Gold FS Team and has been part of Cadet Team Indiana at Fargo in both so I know what it takes.

 

I do believe that we took a pretty good sized group to Cedar Falls for folk.  All you had to do was participate at the cadet or junior level at state and join.  More could have made it.

 

im sorry you can't convince me that being in a single class state makes us better against other states because there are so many class states that thump us yearly.

 

tspray, I made no attempt to convince you that it would do anything to make us better as a state.  The real issue is that I don't have to.  We are a single class state.  If things are going to change it is the mutli-classers that have to do the convincing to the IHSAA and I just do not see that happening.  I really do not believe that you can convince us here let alone in an organization that is more interested in making a buck than making us a better wrestling state.

 

The point I was addressing was that class wrestling would bring more kids out in the room or that it would make those already there better.  That was the point that I addressed and not whether it whether it made a difference over other states.

 

I however am willing to listen to anything that will make this sport better without making a blanket statement that I can not be convinced by anyone.

 

[tspray1]

im proving numbers in the room , who knows class wrestling might do that ... making kids better?  Im not sure who stated that it wasn't I.  My whole arguement is for team class. 

[Y2CJ41]

The more kids that are out for wrestling the better the wrestling will be.  Simply put if every kid in the state had to wrestle at least one person off for a spot it would make for better varsity wrestling.  I personally believe class wrestling would help improve the number of kids in the room at the programs that are struggling and having a hard time filling a line-up or having decent JV numbers.

[AJ]

The data, in which Y2 has done, shows that a high percentage of state qualifiers and placers come from big schools.  This data can be misleading however.  There have been a few big schools which have dominated other big schools, and about everybody, the last so many years.  Mishawaka, Lawrence North, and other schools have sent 4, 5, 6, or even 7 wrestlers to state.  All those qualifiers land in the "big" school section, but they are from one school. 

 

I think the best thing to happen in recent memory was Mishawaka winning the state title!  Wrestling is monotonous win it comes to winning.  Monotonous has nothing to do with class structure, because it can happen within classes.The same schools seem to be at the top of the ladder every year.  EMD, Bellmont, LN deserve their status, they have earned it.  But it was a nice breathe of fresh air watching a team not only compete, but win and beat the top dog.  I know Mishawaka was a power at one time, and has produced champions, but seeing someone other than EMD, Bellmont or LN win was a nce change of pace.  This is no way putting those schools down.  Those three schools have done more for Indiana wrestling than anyone could measure!

[Y2CJ41]

You're lucky I have about 3 million other things on my plate right now to discuss class wrestling!

 

If you look at the stats I posted, I also did a breakdown with the top 5 extremes(both ends) taken out.

http://garrettwrestling.com/proof2008.html

 

You have to remember the team with the most state qualifiers in the past 11 years is Mater Dei who is a small school.  They have had 84 state qualifiers, which is 3.4% of all state qualifiers.  The next highest school is Lawrence North with 58.