Kookie953

I get Jelly-Of-The-Month Club as compensation where I work, but I’m not really complaining.  It’s the gift that keeps on givin all year long.

Can we agree that EMD is an outlier?  There are many advantages they have over other small schools and that could be a thread of its own.  
 

I thought I read somewhere the Muncie Miracle because they beat Muncie.    Sorry, I don't know details of Indiana basketball and where championships was played at, as I'm from another basketball state that overshadows wrestling, but my point is the policy of the IHSAA and psyche of the Indiana sports is still being influenced by the Milan (Miracle) game.   Yea,  Jimmy Chitwood the Louden Swain of basketball.

Do you mean the "Milan Miracle"?  Jimmy Chitwood of Hoosiers....errr Bobby Plump of Milan?  
My grandpa worked at the Chrysler plant on the Eastside of Indy but my grandma lived in Muncie, and legend had it he could sneak out at first break, make it home to "take care of business" around lunch, and sneak back into the plant by the 2nd break without the boss knowing because he would make his quota.  He was called "The Muncie Flash" because of it but not the Muncie Miracle.  

There have been a ton of interesting topics and threads about the subjects listed in my title...every year they come up.  We are a very passionate group and I think we all agree that wrestling needs to grow.  From my little perch in Rochester, Indiana here is my 2 cents...which my step-dad always used to say "Wouldn't buy me a cheap cup of coffee"...so take it as you will.
1. I am a class supporter...both individual and team.  I don't think it will solve every problem but I do believe, in my heart, it will affect the numbers of our sport and more kids will participate and benefit from wrestling.  Yes basketball is classed and viewing numbers have dropped BUT, at Rochester, basketball still has a full varsity, a full JV, and a full freshman team.  People may not attend as much as they used to, but kids are still playing.  No offense to our basketball coaches, but we aren't very good and about 5-6 of those kids should really be wrestling.  I believe that those individuals wrestling in a state championship tournament from a Class 1A or 2A school, will bring notoriety to their school, be talked to by college coaches, and ultimately attract kids to give it a shot...especially at the younger levels.
2. We are fighting a bigger battle than class wrestling and that is a societal change from our youth programs to the HS Seniors.  I love kids, love teaching them, and love coaching them...but the fact is there aren't has many kids to choose from now days that are willing to do what you have to do to just be on the team.  I'm not talking about wrestling varsity.  I'm talking about just being on the team. Very few young men want to endure the physicality of wrestling to wrestle JV.  Kids are used to getting it now or hitting the "reset" button and being able to start over when they lose.  Wrestling requires a ton of work to get what one wants.  Kids don't want to do the work and wait around for 2-3 years to earn their spot...they especially don't want to wrestle year round to have to earn it.  While I don't understand that way of thinking, I do recognize it as an issue.
3.  I'm going to get crucified for this...We, coaches and lovers of wrestling, have done a really bad job of making our sport fun, marketable, and fan/family friendly to the masses.  I include myself in that as well.  
We wrestle too many all day super duals, two-day 10 ways, and too many matches.  At Rochester, we have adjusted our schedule to make it more marketable to kids, families, and fans.  This year it helped with attendance and numbers.  We had a dual with Northwestern and brought in our elementary and MS teams to wrestle before the HS dual.  Had a DJ and spotlights...each kid had their own walk-out song.  Nothing but positive feedback.  We also took some long Saturday's off of our schedule and put in some week night Quads so kids could have their weekend back. That was a hit with parents.  HS season is long...even longer for the elite kids that go year round.  Can you imagine how long it is for those kids with a .500 or losing record wrestling every Saturday and going 0-5, 1-4, 2-3 and maybe earning 1-2 wins or getting forfeits? How many more youth events can we host in a year...especially in Folkstyle?  We got HYWAY, ISWA (From November to April), Elementary Friendship meets, etc.  Yep, I'm guilty as a Coach and a Dad...we take advantage of it. But that doesn't make me right.  I started wrestling at 14. Wrestled the HS Season, went to Freestyle and wrestled as much as I could, but it was over in April. Nothing from May to November unless you made a Fargo team.  Now there is something EVERY single month of the year to choose from.  We want kids to be kids and play other sports but there is something for wrestling EVERY.SINGLE.MONTH.  We don't stop.  The argument is, and it's valid, the family or coach has to choose and know when to back off.  An argument to the argument, and it's valid, is that if it's not available then the family or coach doesn't feel like they need to do it.  Our kids also don't feel like they have to choose.  I'm NOT advocating that we throw the baby out with the bath water, but coaches and our associations should take a look at how we can retain kids, give them experience, and not have an event EVERY.SINGLE.MONTH!! 4.  Bring back the Freestyle and Greco season after the IHSAA State Tournament.  If the ISWA won't give up Folkstyle State, then at least look at a different date.  HS kids don't have to be included in that.  They just wrestled an entire season of folkstyle.  Once IHSAA State ends, have 3 weeks off with no tournaments.  RTC's open all over Indiana and train exclusively in FS and Greco.  Starting in Mid-March, have 5 tournaments on a Saturday or Sunday.  One in the North, South, East, West, and Central for 2 consecutive weeks.  Then 2 weeks of training.  First week within in your RTC, then the second bring 2-3 RTC's together to train.  1 week of tournaments...same as before.  Then the State Tournament.  Be done in April instead of May.  I'm sure this would need tweaking and my weeks might be off...but the idea has merit.
5.  This kind of goes along with #3 and all of the folkstyle events for our youth, but I believe we need a true youth season.  I'd like to see us go November Practice, December Compete, and have Folkstyle State the same weekend as the ISWA Elementary Duals and then be done with Folkstyle.  Janauary...OFF...no wrestling.  Start them training in FS and Greco in February, no tournaments. Tournaments start in Mid-March and go to Freestyle State in April.  This stuff of going November - December with duals, wrestling state duals over break, then coming right back to the "individual" season from January to March, then freestyle (for those that can't control themselves and just have to do it :)) from March to May...it's kind of ridiculous.  We tell our kids that they shouldn't play tackle football year round, we tell our baseball players that they really can't throw year round...but we have kids at 8-9 years old wrestling from October (most practices start) to May.  Before you tear me up...just think about that...from October to May.  Why is that ok for wrestling but not ok for other sports?
I know there are arguments against my points and we have some kids that want to train all the time.  I get it.  If there would have been year round wrestling in Richmond, Indiana when I was 14, I would have done it.  I love it that much.  I would have hit the RTC's, the tournaments, everything.  But I don't coach me and the majority of our kids and families can't afford to, don't have the time to, or just don't want to train/compete as much as the die hards do.  Do the kids who want to train/wrestle year round deserve the chance to do it, yep, and I'm sure we can all find a way for those killers to do that...heck they will anyway.  But as a group, wrestling can do better to attract and retain those kids and families that don't.  We have pretty much given the masses the ultimatum of either do this to be great or quit...unfortunately I think too many quit.
Side note: This doesn't include summer camps, academies, and off season open mats.
Just my 2 cents...
Ready...GO!

From what I hear he didn't use his eligibility this year. He has an option of competing next year if he chooses.
This is a very young and exciting group of wrestlers. They have 42 of 44 kids that are eligible to return next year (all but one starter). Also, 32 of the 44 still have 2 years left (This include 6 kids that look to be this years regional wrestlers IMO).
Great place for our local Indiana wrestlers to go after high school, if they have the grades and want to put in the work (in and out of the classroom)!

I am thankful every single day to be a Bulldog. This is not a knock on any other school system.  For what I want for myself, my wrestlers, my students, and my family Brownsburg is perfect.  

A perfect storm: a top notch coach, big school in a growing and prosperous area, wrestling-friendly administration and a superior academy in your back yard

Wow.. Thanks for sharing, you have great leadership from the AD to the Super... from what is sounds.  You are in a special position there at Brownsburg.

The academy training is a huge advantage here.  We have club and our off-season, but many of our younger guys and high school guys supplement it with Red Cobra and Contenders.  We did not have this option at Mishawaka.  It makes life much easier.  
Here is somethint that has not been said yet:
 
Administrative Support.  I loved my AD, Assistant AD, and Principal at Mishawaka.  I barely knew any of my Superintendents. I don’t even remember their names or how many there were.  At any of our competitions, you will see multiple Brownsburg Administrators- Principal, Asst Prinicipals, AD, Assistant AD, and my superintendent has missed one tournament since I’ve been here.  It was for a wedding and he made me promise to send updates.  
This week he text me to tell him when brackets came out on trackwrestling for semistate.  30 minutes later he sent me a list of questions about how we match up with everyone. I have never even heard of anything like this from the top.  
The way they courting me during my hardest time was insane.  I was planning to go coach in another state.  Looking at houses.  He won me over in 10 minutes.  I don’t think people realize how much of an impact he has on Brownsburg in general, especially wrestling.  His name is Dr. Jim Snapp.  I tried calling him Dr. Snapp for months.  Finally, he pulled me off to the side and said, “My name is Jim and you are my friend Darrick.”  
How did we land a Kyle Ayersman?  Jim met with him and I for over an hour. I called him and asked him to meet with Kyle.  We were in his office the next morning.  I’m very lucky.
Snyder 
 

1. no clue
2. no clue
3. BBurg had the ground work for this great wrestling talent, but it was never harvested before.  He came in and knew exactly what to do to harvest it and grow it and build it up.  Yea the current senior class is a once in a life time group of kids, but the rest of the team was there and @Darrick Snyder made them as successful as they currently are.  He took back up JV kids and made them state ranked kids in 2-3 yrs because of his knowledge, system, off season working and encouragement to branch outside to utilize the local academy training.  In short he is a coaching genius !!  Now having @Fabio Jr. obviously is just icing on the cake.
Bburg will be a team to contend with for years to come because of the talent in the community.  This simply would not have happened under the previous "system" of wrestling from Nov to Feb w/no off season or academy supported training.
#PainTrain

Just as a point of contention, the same argument (growing the sport and getting more participation) was also used for class basketball but the results haven't really been seen.  My point in bringing that up isn't just to say it was a failure per se...it's a complicated issue and there's a LOT that goes into it.  
But just as importantly, my contention is that splitting into classes will not dramatically have an effect on participation numbers.  A 1A school with a struggling program will not magically attract 20 kids to wrestle just because they think they have a chance at a sectional title.  It is a very real concern, when we have forfeits now, that you don't have 3 entries at 106 in an 8 man field in the 1A sectional.   That would suck. 
Equally, splitting into a multi-class individual tourney will not ruin Indiana High School wrestling.  Nothing will be diluted...it's not diluted elsewhere.  So I think we all need to concede that good points are being made on all sides.
I can only go by what I know, which is that I am someone that loves HS sports, is a coach at the HS level, and appreciates everything that HS sports does.  I also have first hand knowledge and witness to what has been done at Brownsburg, where a program was dead and is now the beast it is.  Sure, having BLee living a good 4-iron away from the school helped, but it's so much more than that.  Coach Snyder and staff have absolutely worked their backsides off to actively get the most out of the kids they have, but also DEVELOP the program from the ground up.  I've shared in a previous post, but I'm new to this sport.  My son is a 6th grader that started wrestling after vising Bankers Life in 2016 to watch the state finals...a trip we initially went on because I had some football players there.  I didn't know it then, but that lit a spark in my little dude.  After being a good basketball player his entire life, he surprised me last year in the middle of football season by stating he wanted to wrestle that winter.  
Was this due solely to the #PainTrain success in 2016?  Not hardly, but it obviously did have an effect.  Every summer, Coach Snyder and staff have a 1 day wrestling camp specifically for beginners.  But they don't just have it and show up and pass out Tshirts, they WORK it and identify with kids...and specifically target those with some natural ability.  So my son wanted to sign up for that 1 day camp.  He did, had some "success" in that environment (fun), and either Fabio or Snyder said something to him that took the spark and lit a fire I didn't even know was burning.  He then participated in Club, loved it, and now is in an academy practice after his middle school practice every day there isn't a meet.  All the while he still sucks at wrestling and gets it handed to him against older and more experienced boys, but knows in this sport that hard work and dedication will eventually be rewarded.  But, like anything, the encouragement and care shown by the high school staff at every chance really matters.
This is not unique to our family.  Numbers are up a crazy amount throughout the entire program.   
So why share this?  Because this class discussion is really about participation.  Here's some ideas I have:
If you think you have to have kids that specialize in wrestling, get over yourself.  You gotta share athletes...and that truly means keeping your hands off during another season (besides showing up and cheering your a$$ off for one of your wrestlers).  Nathan Walton is a phenomenal wrestling talent...he's also a phenomenal SS/OLB.  Not once was he told to come to a wrestling activity during football season.  The same holds true in reverse...and at Bburg coaches will actively kick kids out if they are in the middle of another season.  This is a must if you want increased numbers for all.  Get team state (classed) moved to a different time and promote it differently.  I'm sure it's a long story, but why is the IHSAA not a part of this??  Why is it at the worst possible time (Over Christmas)?  Why are not more teams involved? There is no substitute for hard work...as a wrestler or as a coach. You're going to have to get out in the community and identify talent as early as possible.  You're going to have to develop them.   Make it fun.  There's a reason there is a DJ, spotlights, and a fog machine when the #PainTrain has a dual.  You think the little guys aren't noticing how freaking cool it is? Consider training for parents!  The wrestling community is awesome in how supportive it is...but it also suffers by the curse of knowledge and has a language all it's own.  If you have an intro event for kids, also have an intro for the parents in the stands.  Explain scoring, philosophy, etc.  It wasn't until recently that I understood that yelling to whizzer to a kid does not mean that the kid needs a bathroom break.  My mom, God love her, is 74 and never been around the sport.  I need to heed my own advice and not get frustrated when she asks me for the 149th time "why did that kid get a point??" or "why do they go back to the middle, and why is that other boy on top??"   As a newbie my kid and I have gone hard core for the sport, but we're fortunate to be where we are.  If we had an average program or an average coach and staff, I'd still be posting on a hoops board somewhere.  And that is the same if we were at a 6A school or a 1A school.  Keeping this awesome individual tournament won't be the death of wrestling.  But neither will classing it.  Instead, devote energy to growing this awesome sport however and by whatever means necessary.

Just as a point of contention, the same argument (growing the sport and getting more participation) was also used for class basketball but the results haven't really been seen.  My point in bringing that up isn't just to say it was a failure per se...it's a complicated issue and there's a LOT that goes into it.  
But just as importantly, my contention is that splitting into classes will not dramatically have an effect on participation numbers.  A 1A school with a struggling program will not magically attract 20 kids to wrestle just because they think they have a chance at a sectional title.  It is a very real concern, when we have forfeits now, that you don't have 3 entries at 106 in an 8 man field in the 1A sectional.   That would suck. 
Equally, splitting into a multi-class individual tourney will not ruin Indiana High School wrestling.  Nothing will be diluted...it's not diluted elsewhere.  So I think we all need to concede that good points are being made on all sides.
I can only go by what I know, which is that I am someone that loves HS sports, is a coach at the HS level, and appreciates everything that HS sports does.  I also have first hand knowledge and witness to what has been done at Brownsburg, where a program was dead and is now the beast it is.  Sure, having BLee living a good 4-iron away from the school helped, but it's so much more than that.  Coach Snyder and staff have absolutely worked their backsides off to actively get the most out of the kids they have, but also DEVELOP the program from the ground up.  I've shared in a previous post, but I'm new to this sport.  My son is a 6th grader that started wrestling after vising Bankers Life in 2016 to watch the state finals...a trip we initially went on because I had some football players there.  I didn't know it then, but that lit a spark in my little dude.  After being a good basketball player his entire life, he surprised me last year in the middle of football season by stating he wanted to wrestle that winter.  
Was this due solely to the #PainTrain success in 2016?  Not hardly, but it obviously did have an effect.  Every summer, Coach Snyder and staff have a 1 day wrestling camp specifically for beginners.  But they don't just have it and show up and pass out Tshirts, they WORK it and identify with kids...and specifically target those with some natural ability.  So my son wanted to sign up for that 1 day camp.  He did, had some "success" in that environment (fun), and either Fabio or Snyder said something to him that took the spark and lit a fire I didn't even know was burning.  He then participated in Club, loved it, and now is in an academy practice after his middle school practice every day there isn't a meet.  All the while he still sucks at wrestling and gets it handed to him against older and more experienced boys, but knows in this sport that hard work and dedication will eventually be rewarded.  But, like anything, the encouragement and care shown by the high school staff at every chance really matters.
This is not unique to our family.  Numbers are up a crazy amount throughout the entire program.   
So why share this?  Because this class discussion is really about participation.  Here's some ideas I have:
If you think you have to have kids that specialize in wrestling, get over yourself.  You gotta share athletes...and that truly means keeping your hands off during another season (besides showing up and cheering your a$$ off for one of your wrestlers).  Nathan Walton is a phenomenal wrestling talent...he's also a phenomenal SS/OLB.  Not once was he told to come to a wrestling activity during football season.  The same holds true in reverse...and at Bburg coaches will actively kick kids out if they are in the middle of another season.  This is a must if you want increased numbers for all.  Get team state (classed) moved to a different time and promote it differently.  I'm sure it's a long story, but why is the IHSAA not a part of this??  Why is it at the worst possible time (Over Christmas)?  Why are not more teams involved? There is no substitute for hard work...as a wrestler or as a coach. You're going to have to get out in the community and identify talent as early as possible.  You're going to have to develop them.   Make it fun.  There's a reason there is a DJ, spotlights, and a fog machine when the #PainTrain has a dual.  You think the little guys aren't noticing how freaking cool it is? Consider training for parents!  The wrestling community is awesome in how supportive it is...but it also suffers by the curse of knowledge and has a language all it's own.  If you have an intro event for kids, also have an intro for the parents in the stands.  Explain scoring, philosophy, etc.  It wasn't until recently that I understood that yelling to whizzer to a kid does not mean that the kid needs a bathroom break.  My mom, God love her, is 74 and never been around the sport.  I need to heed my own advice and not get frustrated when she asks me for the 149th time "why did that kid get a point??" or "why do they go back to the middle, and why is that other boy on top??"   As a newbie my kid and I have gone hard core for the sport, but we're fortunate to be where we are.  If we had an average program or an average coach and staff, I'd still be posting on a hoops board somewhere.  And that is the same if we were at a 6A school or a 1A school.  Keeping this awesome individual tournament won't be the death of wrestling.  But neither will classing it.  Instead, devote energy to growing this awesome sport however and by whatever means necessary.

No disrespect but are any of those scenarios changed because we go to a class system?

this roadhouse referenceis literally the beat post of the year.  good job @BlueBolt

I'm so embarresed

I get Jelly-Of-The-Month Club as compensation where I work, but I’m not really complaining.  It’s the gift that keeps on givin all year long.

I get Jelly-Of-The-Month Club as compensation where I work, but I’m not really complaining.  It’s the gift that keeps on givin all year long.

I get Jelly-Of-The-Month Club as compensation where I work, but I’m not really complaining.  It’s the gift that keeps on givin all year long.

I get Jelly-Of-The-Month Club as compensation where I work, but I’m not really complaining.  It’s the gift that keeps on givin all year long.

Speaking solely from a 1A selfish standpoint.  If wrestling became classed......I'd likely transfer my son to a larger school.  Because in my opinion.....without a "Tournament of Champions", most of the time kids from the larger schools would be perceived as better.  Yes......I realize national accolades would separate a wrestlers worth to recruiters.  However....I personally feel a 1 class system is one of the beauties of this sport here at home.
In regards to a wrestler becoming more successful......they simply need to have the hunger & drive to accomplish those things.  My personal feeling......is that there is no difference between a kid at a small school vs a kid at a larger school in regards to becoming "elite".  You have the same opportunities at open rooms, club training, ISWA events, national events, etc.  Ultimately it's a choice.  How hard is a kid willing to work on & off the mat at ALL the attributes that define a great athlete.....and not just someone whose athletic.  Now, becoming "good" is a different story.  
Having better practice partners in season, larger room (more partners), wrestling a tougher schedule, etc., will all play a factor in kids who primarily wrestle from Nov to Jan/Feb. in distancing themselves from peers at smaller programs.  But that's a much different animal than truly pursuing future wrestling goals.
Ill be the first to admit I don't have all the answers.  And I'm sure it could possibly help grow the sport some on a lower level.  But I'm fairly confident that "classing" things would create an influx of your better wrestlers (including youth) beginning to gravitate more towards larger programs.  Again....this is just my perspective on one facet of "class wrestling".  I understand that there are other angles that I've not spoken on.  But ultimately.....this is an individual sport within a team concept.  So weakening competition so more kids can be successful who aren't putting in the work.....seems counter-productive to everything this sport stands for. Of which....is a major reason an old baseball guy like me has fallen in love with it.  No excuses....and nobody to blame but the man in the mirror.  
 

I live in Indiana. I'm only worried about Indiana. Why not be the leader and not the follower? You guys can cry all day about class wrestling. It really boils down to the kid, his heart, his determination. Simple. Class wrestling will do the same as class basketball. If that's what you like then good. It's really a matter of taste. Y2, you can bring up all the stats you want. It won't change the fact we're letting soft ass adults raise soft ass kids. Obviously this is just MY OPINION. I can't stand participation trophies. I especially can't stand adults telling kids losing is ok!!!! Give little johnny something to strive for instead of telling him good job when he just got his ass handed to him! 

We can blame it on society. As a whole we're raising a bunch of soft ass entitled kids. We need to quit giving out participation trophies. You either suck and need to work harder or you have worked hard and you're at the top of the food chain. 

I am new to wrestling and didn't even wrestle in high school.  I played basketball.  Which I don't know if that is an unwritten rule that you don't talk about here or not.  I don't think making basketball class has benefited anybody.  I know that our school won two state titles the first year of class sports. 1 in baseball and 1 in basketball.  Gyms were sold out, students loved going to games to watch.  Now its dead.  I'm not sure how going to class would increase the numbers.  We have just started a club about 5 years ago and it has steadily increased.  I'm very happy to say we had over 65 kids in our club this year 6th grade and younger.  I think that is how you increase numbers in small schools.  Not letting them win.  I have no data I can just speak from my opinion.  When my 3 boys go to get a job after college they don't get to apply at  1A businesses.  They have to compete with everybody.  I want them to learn how to do that now.  Not say to them "well we go to a small school so they have decided that it isn't fair for you to compete against bigger schools.  We as a society have screwed the small schools students up by telling them they can't compete.
Just a small town boys opinion that has a state championship ring but it has an * by it. 

Maybe we should have a Freshman only state, a sophomore only state, a Junior only state and a senior only state. 
then older kids aren't picking on younger kids..............#NoClassWrestling
<Pound Sign>HendricksCountySmellsFunnyTough
side note......... @asbury4040 I love your posts buddy !!!   Keep up the good work  #PainTrain