With All Things Considered…

[Brandon Sandefur]

NJ and California have only single class and they have huge participation numbers and very tough state tournaments. 

 

In regards to the classes, specifically in IL and OH, the large school divisions have the top tier programs.  Yes you have St. Paris Graham and others but for the most part the large school divisions in those states are the most heavily recruited at the DI level. 

 

We do see alot of forfeits and the sport obviously needs to grow.   How many programs have open rooms/clubs run out of the high school?  After being down here in SE Indiana and talking to friends/ family up north there seems to be alot less open rooms scattered throughout the state.  The ones that do have them what are the typical numbers...20 kids or so or is it single digit numbers during the off season?

[Galagore]

Despite my history and the language of my first post in this thread, my intent was not to turn this into a class wrestling discussion. My intent was to make a point that class wrestling and wrestlebacks both have an equally likely chance of changing our current course.

 

If some of you want to know what you can do, then here is something...it is not an easy thing, but this is something that would help if anyone were willing and able to do it...

 

Go into a community without a wrestling foundation and jump in to help a youth program. Here at Culver, our administration was gracious enough to buy us TWO new competition wrestling mats, agree to TWO events to be hosted by our school and granted us TWO new paid youth coaching positions. That last part is the key. Without help, all the equipment and events in the world cannot be used properly. Get with a small program (not necessarily from a small school) and see if they need help with youth wrestling.

 

The Fort is fantastic, and definitely will help grow our sport amongst people who are already involved. We also need to grow the sport amongst those who are not yet involved. Again, our top talent is really coming along nicely. What we need from here are more people who do wrestle just during wrestling season. Those students don't get us national recognition, but they keep our sport viable. They fill lineups. They bring parents, grandparents, etc. to the meets to watch them wrestle. They have little brothers and sisters who look up to them who might just decide they want to wrestle because big brother or big sister wrestled.

[aoberlin]

25 minutes ago, Galagore said:

The Fort is fantastic, and definitely will help grow our sport amongst people who are already involved. We also need to grow the sport amongst those who are not yet involved. Again, our top talent is really coming along nicely. What we need from here are more people who do wrestle just during wrestling season. Those students don't get us national recognition, but they keep our sport viable. They fill lineups. They bring parents, grandparents, etc. to the meets to watch them wrestle. They have little brothers and sisters who look up to them who might just decide they want to wrestle because big brother or big sister wrestled.

All good stuff. Just know the goal of The Fort is to find new wrestlers also. Are plan is to have a beginners club year round and find new wrestlers. We have actually already had a couple go from new to training in the advanced club.

[Galagore]

16 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

All good stuff. Just know the goal of The Fort is to find new wrestlers also. Are plan is to have a beginners club year round and find new wrestlers. We have actually already had a couple go from new to training in the advanced club.

No doubt and no disrespect, coach. It's just that in our community, people new to the sport need to be reached directly by their home town people. I assume that is the case in most small/isolated towns. We in Culver are pretty excited to see what results from your program in the coming years.

[aoberlin]

4 minutes ago, Galagore said:

No doubt and no disrespect, coach. It's just that in our community, people new to the sport need to be reached directly by their home town people. I assume that is the case in most small/isolated towns. We in Culver are pretty excited to see what results from your program in the coming years.

Totally understand. It is much easier to pull kids into your school then some random place outside the school system. Before CoVid I had a little over 100 beginners in my youth club for last couple years then CoVid locked us out. 

[Tenser310]

Lots of post on here about Coaches need to get kids in and keep them in...  IHSWCA needs to work with coaches on education and retention....  My question would be what is the answer.....  What specifically can we as Coaches Paid/Volunteer alike do to retain these kids?  I can only speak from my own experience which is VERY limited BUT... in the Winamac program 8 years ago we had total of 7 wrestlers in the wrestling room... Teams didn't want to wrestle us because of FF...  We had head coach turnover....  then Group of Coaches and Parents decided to do something about it...  We created a wrestling Club..... We got people involved when there was none before...  as of today the Winamac program is in the 1A Team state talks.... but those that started 7 years ago their kids are graduated or graduating.....  New parents that are coming up are not as involved... what is the magic phrase or event or picture that brings support out in a small community...  7 years ago everyone involved had wrestled for Winamac in the past and have kids involved in the sport but seems we can't get that parent that didn't wrestle to support the program or build up their Childs grit to stick with it and finish.....   what's the secret to sustaining a Club/program after its grown?  How/What do others do that are in a smaller community?  I don't believe in everyone gets a trophy or medal...  but actually earning the title of Winner is much more fulfilling feeling than everybody wins...  Quote from Disney movie comes to mind " When everyone is SUPER.....  No one will be......"

[Y2CJ41]

3 hours ago, Tenser310 said:

Lots of post on here about Coaches need to get kids in and keep them in...  IHSWCA needs to work with coaches on education and retention....  My question would be what is the answer.....  What specifically can we as Coaches Paid/Volunteer alike do to retain these kids?  I can only speak from my own experience which is VERY limited BUT... in the Winamac program 8 years ago we had total of 7 wrestlers in the wrestling room... Teams didn't want to wrestle us because of FF...  We had head coach turnover....  then Group of Coaches and Parents decided to do something about it...  We created a wrestling Club..... We got people involved when there was none before...  as of today the Winamac program is in the 1A Team state talks.... but those that started 7 years ago their kids are graduated or graduating.....  New parents that are coming up are not as involved... what is the magic phrase or event or picture that brings support out in a small community...  7 years ago everyone involved had wrestled for Winamac in the past and have kids involved in the sport but seems we can't get that parent that didn't wrestle to support the program or build up their Childs grit to stick with it and finish.....   what's the secret to sustaining a Club/program after its grown?  How/What do others do that are in a smaller community?  I don't believe in everyone gets a trophy or medal...  but actually earning the title of Winner is much more fulfilling feeling than everybody wins...  Quote from Disney movie comes to mind " When everyone is SUPER.....  No one will be......"

Lots of comments/questions and more here.

 

As far as retention, that is hard to pinpoint exactly why kids aren't coming back without being in the program or even talking to the kids. The biggest thing I see a lot of times is just the attitude of coaches and how they run their practices. Keeping kids interested and engaged isn't an easy task by any means. As coaches we have all had those kids who seem to need constant attention and others who don't. Retaining kids is different for each kid. Maybe one kid that means working with another sport better, another maybe it's just making them feel like they are truly important. 

 

Like you said, coaching turnover did not help and never will help. As far as getting parents to come in and take the place of others. Things like getting an email/newsletter together to inform the new parents of what is going on and how they can help. As with the kids, engage with them. Tell them you'll need concessions, after meet snacks, etc and they will step up after they see the others provide.

 

The youth program is something that is another monster. We were talking about this at the Fort Wayne area coaches meeting this summer. One suggestion was to try to get a coach in there that will be around for a while. Try not to have parents running it, but helping as needed. If you use a parent make sure they have some younger kids so you'll know they will be around for as long as possible. As with the high school, coaching turnover will hurt the growth and stability within the program.

[busstogate]

Wow, I see some real city and suburban issues being 100% completely ignored.  Also, Andy, you are missing the "fun" boat in terms of trying to keep kids coming out.  I agree with your long-term takes, but they are NOT ENOUGH to keep kids from straying into drug abuse and getting sunk into video game culture.

[aoberlin]

52 minutes ago, busstogate said:

Wow, I see some real city and suburban issues being 100% completely ignored.  Also, Andy, you are missing the "fun" boat in terms of trying to keep kids coming out.  I agree with your long-term takes, but they are NOT ENOUGH to keep kids from straying into drug abuse and getting sunk into video game culture.

I have ran more sharks and minnows games and hashima than probably anyone I know.  I have been coaching for 25 years and I have a pretty good retention rate along with my programs fielding a good number of wrestlers. There needs to be different levels of wrestling for different ages. But… focusing on fun at the upper levels is just lying to the kids about what it will take. I built a place that is full multimedia to help reach the video age wrestlers. As far as the drug abuse situations that takes getting personal relationships with the kids. Like Joe said each kid is reached differently. 

[base]

@Galagore One thing I thought of the other day, I'm curious on your take as the coach of a small school.  One of the major issues at small HS is not having the practice partners to help a wrestler get better. 

 

I know that inter-school practices are not allowed at the HS level - but what about Jr High/ Middle Schools?  Could those middle school teams hold joint practices to boost the practice numbers, and better prepare the young wrestlers for the high school level?

 

As for the youth program retention - I think one of the primary goals I would have is to encourage the parents to really bond with each other.  As families get closer, I think it really increases the likelihood of the kids staying with the program.  This would include doing social gatherings beyond the regular wrestling practices - cookouts, cornhole tourneys, etc.  Let the kids get together and just be kids at the same time.  One side bar to this is that such an arrangement can get "cliquish" so I would make it clear to the families that one goal is to better integrate the new club parents into the social group.

 

I have been to many wrestling tournaments and duals over the years, and have noticed even at the high school level that many parents will all sit apart from each other - that should be the exception, not the norm

[Y2CJ41]

14 minutes ago, base said:

I know that inter-school practices are not allowed at the HS level - but what about Jr High/ Middle Schools?  Could those middle school teams hold joint practices to boost the practice numbers, and better prepare the young wrestlers for the high school level?

 

I'll let Galgore answer more specifically, but this is an interesting idea. One big obstacle is transportation and location. Schools are further apart in areas of the state and thus it's an hour or more drive to another school at times. Schools are finicky when it comes to middle school athletics and most try to follow IHSAA rules as much as possible even though it's the wild west in middle school. I'd be interested in hearing how an AD would react to something like this.

 

It is something I have never thought of and a very interesting way of intermingling kids and helping everyone get better.

[randalllynch]

With school of choice for High School I think you will find quite a few coaches will not want their feeder schools to have joint practices with other feeder schools.

[Tenser310]

5 minutes ago, randalllynch said:

With school of choice for High School I think you will find quite a few coaches will not want their feeder schools to have joint practices with other feeder schools.

Not so sure I would agree with you on that one....  I am more On Joe's bandwagon on this one...  wonder how an AD would look at it...... I could see MAJOR resistance if its called just a "Practice"   but what about the term "Friendly Meet"......  might go over better with the school systems...

[randalllynch]

I would agree with "Scrimmages" we used to do that, but consistent practices would be a different situation.  In our area we have 6 Indiana High Schools and probably close to 20 Louisville High Schools all in commuting distance.  We see kids move between them in all sports.  

[Galagore]

@base

 

We definitely have an issue with practice partners, but that is primarily at our HS level. There are a couple at the youth level every year on one end of the scale or the other. My son, for example, is a 50 pound third grader and had to wrestle at least 10 pounds up every match during intramural season. We have started a youth wrestling league with Triton to hopefully help alleviate that at least for live wrestling purposes. However, at the varsity level...practice partners are a huge issue. We have a larger issue, but I will address that in a different post. The idea of getting our MS together with another school would be interesting...if we had a better wrestling culture. Right now, we need to focus on our own house and making sure that we have kids that will come to our school for practice.

 

In our youth program, we moved our intramural out of the wrestling room and into the Elementary gym. This allowed us to pull out bleachers and let parents be much more a part of the youth experience. That was a huge benefit for us, though it did take a lot more man power to move the mats before and after every practice. It would be fantastic to have more of a community in our youth program, but right now I am heading up every level but MS, and there just aren't enough hours in the day to organize things like that. However, you are 100% correct. Even simply having the bleachers out where people could sit (sometimes together) and enjoy the action together made a huge difference in parent and athlete experience.

 

 

[busstogate]

37 minutes ago, randalllynch said:

With school of choice for High School I think you will find quite a few coaches will not want their feeder schools to have joint practices with other feeder schools.

This is very true.  No one is willing to put their distrust aside for the greater good because they have  protect themselves from their sometimes poaching contemporaries.

[Y2CJ41]

20 minutes ago, randalllynch said:

I would agree with "Scrimmages" we used to do that, but consistent practices would be a different situation.  In our area we have 6 Indiana High Schools and probably close to 20 Louisville High Schools all in commuting distance.  We see kids move between them in all sports.  

Each school has different circumstances to work with. Obviously for a school like yours it would be a bad idea. Other areas schools are separated by 45minutes to an hour and it would be very difficult for kids to go to another school. People are too quick to throw out a suggestion and think everywhere is the same.

[KBCclan]

Small schools have it tough in regards to finding quality practice partners. It's frustrating but what can you do? My kid was a semi-state qualifier as a freshman last year. His primary partner got his butt handed to him in sectionals. That's a discrepancy in talent. This season, 3 potentially "decent" partners he would have had have already quit. What now? All he can do is put his head down and get the best reps in he can during practice. Thankfully he does a considerable amount of off season training with an academy 30 miles away. I hate the plateau he hits during season because of lack of practice partners. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by KBCclan

[aoberlin]

1 hour ago, Galagore said:

This allowed us to pull out bleachers and let parents be much more a part of the youth experience. That was a huge benefit for us, though it did take a lot more man power to move the mats before and after every practice.

I find this to be very beneficial also.  I have always ran an open practice for the youth. Gives you the ability to reach the parents with what you are coaching also. It also keeps everything very transparent.

39 minutes ago, KBCclan said:

I hate the plateau he hits during season because of lack of practice partners. 

That is a huge challenge. To my knowledge many states allow you to practice with other kids from other schools in a club environment outside the school system during season. Don't even bring this up to the IHSAA. They will never budge on this but I think it could be huge for wrestlers like yours in that situation. 

[Galagore]

The fact is, this problem does not get fixed in a season, or even five seasons. We need non-parent people who want to help grow the sport in our state. People need to help start or maintain youth programs in disinterested communities. If you are a person who cares about Indiana wrestling and you live in a strong wrestling community, consider looking at the next community over. Maybe they need some help. The major problem is, not enough people identify as wrestlers. We lost four of our five best wrestlers this season. All four just up and quit after putting 4-5 years in the program. Arguably our best wrestler, definitely one of our two best, was actually driven by me with my own son to ISWA folkstyle state last year. He quit. Why? There are a lot of reasons. When people ask, I always say, "Because wrestling is hard." In reality, while that is certainly true, it's because they don't identify as wrestlers in their core. That starts at a young age. And it grows gradually over time. And it requires more than one or two people in a community who are fully invested. This problems gets fixed via grass-roots effort. So again, if you want Indiana wrestling to halt the backslide, reach out to a school that needs you, and see if they are interested in your help.