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Westforkwhite

Class Wrestling - Potential Benefits

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That is exactly the things that small towns do when their sports teams have success. More towns that do this will bring lots of positive recognition for the sport. Thus more kids will want to be like the high school kids and join up with wrestling.

Completely agree.

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I've seen growth in a program that I was very much involved in. I have seen this very much first hand.

It's not unobtainable, but we need to also sit back and see how long it lasts. Is Shenandoah a fly by night program or do they join the ranks of Adams Central and Prairie Heights as a perennial small school power? We'll see and I'm rooting for them to continue the success.

yep

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This is a very valid point, however its got a little of the chicken and egg thing going on. Without having a program to begin with how do you have the success that leads to more participation? If there is apathy towards wrestling at a given school is class wrestling likely to change that? Do we end up with just a few elite programs at the lower levels that dominate their respective divisions (much the same way it is today)?

 

I think the programs with clubs particularly at youth level will be the ones to reap the multi class benefits. I still question what effect this would have on the programs that don't have club or major commitment to the sport in place. We essentially have 4-5 1A programs, the rest just field teams (mostly incomplete) does class bring parity or does it just create a few dominant schools who place and win state disproportionately to their peers in the class.

 

In my opinion there is very little or no validity to the first point. It gives almost no credence to the fact the grass roots level is what increased participation is all about and it starts at home with parents that see the value of what this sport does for kids. for instance having gym classes at the grade school level that have say a 1 month stretch where wrestling is the activity. In my opinion that type of intro to wrestling does far more for participation than any change or implementation at the high school level ever could. 

 

The second point is a better one in my opinion concerning participation but still doesn't seem to really relate to a class wrestling argument. there are plenty of kids from what would be 1A schools that attend an academy that has no particular school or city affiliation, and trains kids from all schools. So it becomes a mecca of wrestling quality that benefits everyone and creates a level of competition at a young age which allows small school kids to compete on the same level as big school kids and that projects directly into high quality high school wrestling across the board regardless of school size.

 

So in my opinion the "fairness" aspect is really the only valid point. and certainly not a point that would help the sport from a quantity or quality perspective. just a distraction... 

Edited by MCKAJC

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So more teams having success won't have an affect on participation numbers? Did you not see or hear the Shenandoah crowd this weekend? They were as loud or louder than teams like Chesterton and Perry Meridian. 

 

Have you ever seen a 1A or 2A sectional or regional championship? They literally shut down the town when their high schools have success. This weekend Central Noble had a sign outside the town saying "last one to leave, turn the lights off" when they had a couple state qualifiers and a girls basketball team at semi-state. Imagine if that were more schools.

 

That is GOOD for the sport. More kids and schools going to state will promote the sport in more places.

All very logical anecdotal evidence.

 

But how big of a jump in numbers could we expect from the 1A schools? How many kids would you expect class wrestling to add to the total number of wrestlers in 1A (varsity & jv)? Would it be 100, 200, 500, 1000?

 

We should be measuring the health of the sport by total kids wrestling in IN HS(7300), not on which schools are having success.

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All very logical anecdotal evidence.

 

But how big of a jump in numbers could we expect from the 1A schools? How many kids would you expect class wrestling to add to the total number of wrestlers in 1A (varsity & jv)? Would it be 100, 200, 500, 1000?

 

We should be measuring the health of the sport by total kids wrestling in IN HS(7300), not on which schools are having success.

When I wrestled at Garrett we had 15-20 kids on the team, the numbers dropped to single digits in the early 2000's. With the continued success individually and as a team they average between 25-30 now.

 

5 more kids exposed to the sport per school is roughly 1500 new kids exposed to wrestling. 

 

From the forfeit statistics you can tell the health of the sport at the small school level is not good. Approximately 400 forfeits at 1A compared to 100 at 3A is a pretty good indicator.

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Why that number?

Because Indiana is not really experiencing any population growth. (My sarcasm font was off)

Why that number?

Because Indiana is not really experiencing any population growth. (My scarasm font was off) Edited by Mat Shark

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25-30 in a school of 500 is excellent. Heck 15-20 is very good. And you were able to have success in a single class environment that drove participation. Albeit you would have had more success in a multi class system, but would that have translated into numbers greater than 25-30 than they've achieved in the single class format? My point is that 25 wrestlers in a school of 500 means that 1 in 10 boys are on the wrestling team, those are astronomical numbers. Example: If Penn is getting 10% of their boys to wrestle they have 150 kids on the team. We know Penn has huge numbers, but they are nowhere near this mark. So I'm struggling with the expectation that 1A schools will all be filling their rooms with the success they've had in multi class. I just can't see that many 1A schools being able to recruit 25 kids, class environment or otherwise.

 

Lets say 30 of the 100 1A schools all got a 5 wrestler bump from class wrestling. That would yield us 150 more wrestlers in the state. And would represent a gain of 3% of the available boys in the school. (avg school size 350)

 

Or even 30 of the 100 1A schools got a 10 wrestler bump, we'd be talking 300 new wrestlers (gaining 6% of the available boys)

 

So depending on where you started 10 kids (6%) or 15 kids (9%) 20 kids (12%) you could be looking at nearly 20% of the the schools boys involved in wrestling. I know there are schools that have these types of numbers but I just can't expect this will replicate on a mass scale.

Edited by Westforkwhite

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25-30 in a school of 500 is excellent. Heck 15-20 is very good. And you were able to have success in a single class environment that drove participation. Albeit you would have had more success in a multi class system, but would that have translated into numbers greater than 25-30 than they've achieved in the single class format? My point is that 25 wrestlers in a school of 500 means that 1 in 10 boys are on the wrestling team, those are astronomical numbers. Example: If Penn is getting 10% of their boys to wrestle they have 150 kids on the team. We know Penn has huge numbers, but they are nowhere near this mark. So I'm struggling with the expectation that 1A schools will all be filling their rooms with the success they've had in multi class. I just can't see that many 1A schools being able to recruit 25 kids, class environment or otherwise.

 

Lets say 30 of the 100 1A schools all got a 5 wrestler bump from class wrestling. That would yield us 150 more wrestlers in the state. And would represent a gain of 3% of the available boys in the school. (avg school size 350)

 

Or even 30 of the 100 1A schools got a 10 wrestler bump, we'd be talking 300 new wrestlers (gaining 6% of the available boys)

 

So depending on where you started 10 kids (6%) or 15 kids (9%) 20 kids (12%) you could be looking at nearly 20% of the the schools boys involved in wrestling. I know there are schools that have these types of numbers but I just can't expect this will replicate on a mass scale.

One of my friends and now an assistant at Garrett wrestled at small school(D3) power Richmond in Michigan. They had around 500 students and would get 40-50 out for wrestling. It can be done, as we see it with our teams like Prairie Heights.

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One of my friends and now an assistant at Garrett wrestled at small school(D3) power Richmond in Michigan. They had around 500 students and would get 40-50 out for wrestling. It can be done, as we see it with our teams like Prairie Heights.

Very true, but you tend to dismiss these teams as anomalies when they are brought up as disproving that 1A teams can't compete. So now to hold them out as the rule rather than the exception as it relates to participation seems contradictory.

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Very true, but you tend to dismiss these teams as anomalies when they are brought up as disproving that 1A teams can't compete. So now to hold them out as the rule rather than the exception as it relates to participation seems contradictory.

I've seen these with my own two eyes. I've seen a program grow from NEVER having a state qualifier into one that expects to have a state qualifier every year. I have seen what it does for community support. I've seen the middle school team grow from 15-20 kids to 40+. 

 

I would venture to say the top 20 teams in each class have a significantly higher roster size than the others. Kids want to be a part of a team that has success. 

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I've seen these with my own two eyes. I've seen a program grow from NEVER having a state qualifier into one that expects to have a state qualifier every year. I have seen what it does for community support. I've seen the middle school team grow from 15-20 kids to 40+. 

 

I would venture to say the top 20 teams in each class have a significantly higher roster size than the others. Kids want to be a part of a team that has success.

I still don't that experience or that it could and would happen elsewhere. My real question is how many schools can we realistically expect to field 20% or more of their available boys on the wrestling team. This takes an enormous time commitment(as you well know), that simply having a kid medal at state won't replace. Its relish on the hotdog, without having the hotdog first the relish only contributes so much

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I still don't that experience or that it could and would happen elsewhere. My real question is how many schools can we realistically expect to field 20% or more of their available boys on the wrestling team. This takes an enormous time commitment(as you well know), that simply having a kid medal at state won't replace. Its relish on the hotdog, without having the hotdog first the relish only contributes so much

If every school under 500 students got 10% of their boys to wrestle(101 schools)

Every school 500-1000 had a roster of 25(100 schools)

Every school 1000+ has a roster of 40(104 schools)

We'd have about 8500 wrestlers in the state.

 

Small schools are different animals when it comes to athletics and celebrating their achievements. 

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Here is a list of years each respective state adopted a multi class system and the number of classes.

 

GA 67-2 71-4 01-5 13-6 17-7

IL 74-2 09-3

IA. 57-2 69-3

KS. 66-2 71-3 73-4

MI. 61-2 74-4

MN. 76-2 97-3

NY. 04-2

OH. 74-2 76-3

PA. 74-2

WA. 31-2 58-3 69-4

WI. 80-3

You only have a sample of some states.   If you listed all the states,  you would see that most moved to a class system in the 60s and 70s as there was a national movement in all sports, not just wrestling.   Indiana was an outlier for better or worse and never made the jump to a classed system.   I used to live in Missouri and I know they moved to 4 classes in 2000 or 2001.

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You only have a sample of some states.   If you listed all the states,  you would see that most moved to a class system in the 60s and 70s as there was a national movement in all sports, not just wrestling.   Indiana was an outlier for better or worse and never made the jump to a classed system.   I used to live in Missouri and I know they moved to 4 classes in 2000 or 2001.

Only listed the states used in the spreadsheet I attached. MO however didn't have their historical tournament information posted to their MSHSAA website, nor could I find a complete listing of past tournaments elsewhere. If you have additional info on the years and classes for MO, please share.

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If every school under 500 students got 10% of their boys to wrestle(101 schools)

Every school 500-1000 had a roster of 25(100 schools)

Every school 1000+ has a roster of 40(104 schools)

We'd have about 8500 wrestlers in the state.

 

Small schools are different animals when it comes to athletics and celebrating their achievements.

But the largest gains in participation from your example are coming from 2A and 3A. In your example (using avg 1A school size of 350) that would constitute 1750 total 1A participants. Lets say there are 1200 wrestlers in 1A(this may be low) that would yield about 550 new wrestlers. Which means that you expect 650 wrestlers to be added to 2A & 3A, which is more than you would expect to add to 1A.

 

Most (if not all) of the multi class discussion centers around the perceived inequity to 1A schools. Yet even in your example you cite the potential for greater gains in 2A & 3A. Doesn't it make sense to shift the argument to how multi class would impact the schools containing 88% of our student population, as opposed to spending 99% of our time talking about 11%?

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But the largest gains in participation from your example are coming from 2A and 3A. In your example (using avg 1A school size of 350) that would constitute 1750 total 1A participants. Lets say there are 1200 wrestlers in 1A(this may be low) that would yield about 550 new wrestlers. Which means that you expect 650 wrestlers to be added to 2A & 3A, which is more than you would expect to add to 1A.

 

Most (if not all) of the multi class discussion centers around the perceived inequity to 1A schools. Yet even in your example you cite the potential for greater gains in 2A & 3A. Doesn't it make sense to shift the argument to how multi class would impact the schools containing 88% of our student population, as opposed to spending 99% of our time talking about 11%?

 

How would it negatively impact the 88%?

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How would it negatively impact the 88%?

Everyone on the class side is up in arms about the couple percentage point gap for 1A to achieve their proportionate share. But class wrestling would mean that 11% of the athletes get 1/3 of the medals, and 63% would get 33% of the total medals. If we are concerned with 2-3% gap on 1A why doesn't it bother you we'd have a 30% inequity in 3A? If we perceive the current status of 1A medals an injustice, how could we perceive the 30% gap that would be created for 3A any differently?

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Everyone on the class side is up in arms about the couple percentage point gap for 1A to achieve their proportionate share. But class wrestling would mean that 11% of the athletes get 1/3 of the medals, and 63% would get 33% of the total medals. If we are concerned with 2-3% gap on 1A why doesn't it bother you we'd have a 30% inequity in 3A? If we perceive the current status of 1A medals an injustice, how could we perceive the 30% gap that would be created for 3A any differently?

 

Not totally following your logic.  Please explain how having classes would lead to a 30% gap in medals for 3A schools.

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Calculations in reference to the total medals the state hands out. If we go to 3 classes, 3A only gets 33% of the medals, yet they represent 63% of the students (and likely near that % of the total wrestlers in the state). Which means a perspective boy in a 1A school would be approximately 6 times as likely to qualify/place just by virtue of going to a smaller school.

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You only have a sample of some states.   If you listed all the states,  you would see that most moved to a class system in the 60s and 70s as there was a national movement in all sports, not just wrestling.   Indiana was an outlier for better or worse and never made the jump to a classed system.   I used to live in Missouri and I know they moved to 4 classes in 2000 or 2001.

Also used to live in Nebraska;  Scholar has been around.  Here's NE results:

 

NE 1929=1, 1961=2, 1967=3, 1970 =4

 

CO 1936=1, 1957=2, 1969=3, 1991 =5, 1995=4 

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