MatDad21 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 How many kids has this happened to? Please note was if this was because of a loss, got taken down, just out of anger or an injury and just slipped out. Was it 1st offense of match or repeated misuse of language? I will start by answering my own question. In the first 20 seconds of match Wrestler takes a shot and is injured yells and a profanity comes out. Referee calls for injury time comes to wrestler and says watch your mouth. Opposite coach walks to ref and complains did he just say (insert profanity here)? Referee looks at our side and says DQ for flagrant misconduct done for the day. This happened to my son going for his 4th conference title and had a good chance at doing so. The way I understand it was a rule in which was misinterpreted or incorrectly applied. That is the nice way of saying it. My way of saying it would for sure get me DQ'd from this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlevito Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 How many kids has this happened to? Please note was if this was because of a loss, got taken down, just out of anger or an injury and just slipped out. Was it 1st offense of match or repeated misuse of language? I will start by answering my own question. In the first 20 seconds of match Wrestler takes a shot and is injured yells and a profanity comes out. Referee calls for injury time comes to wrestler and says watch your mouth. Opposite coach walks to ref and complains did he just say (insert profanity here)? Referee looks at our side and says DQ for flagrant misconduct done for the day. This happened to my son going for his 4th conference title and had a good chance at doing so. The way I understand it was a rule in which was misinterpreted or incorrectly applied. That is the nice way of saying it. My way of saying it would for sure get me DQ'd from this site. Do you have a competition between conference and Sectionals? Cause doesn't a kid have to sit out the next competition for a Flagrant Misconduct? I really hope there is something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatDad21 Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Yes thankfully we wrestled Frankfort last night and could not wrestle. Of course it was senior night another thing that he will never get back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmak Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Do you have a competition between conference and Sectionals? Cause doesn't a kid have to sit out the next competition for a Flagrant Misconduct? I really hope there is something. That's what I was thinking is that he would have to sit out the next event. If that's sectionals then he is done. I heard there are teams looking to get in one last event before sectionals so u might want to look into that. I know fishers was looking to host an event during the week next week in order to have senior night. It got cancelled due to weather. I'm sure there are more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlevito Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Yes thankfully we wrestled Frankfort last night and could not wrestle. Of course it was senior night another thing that he will never get back. Ok, good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allritecoach Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Brian by my take on the rules(7.4.2) he should have received a warning and lost a team point, and then if it happened again, then be ejected and lose two team points. Now if the expletive was directed towards the Official it would definitely be flagrant misconduct, but from what I heard that wasn't the case. Did they take away a team Point? Sad when opposing coach would do that "just to win". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatDad21 Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Brian by my take on the rules(7.4.2) he should have received a warning and lost a team point, and then if it happened again, then be ejected and lose two team points. Now if the expletive was directed towards the Official it would definitely be flagrant misconduct, but from what I heard that wasn't the case. Did they take away a team Point? Sad when opposing coach would do that "just to win". That's probably what should of happened. Yes team point then second team point I believe was for our coach getting upset. Opposing coach said he never wanted him to get DQ'd just wanted point. Is that true ? I hope so. Watching him pump fist was tough for Blake to watch. The question is did the Ref. just not know rules? Is there more to the story? Bad feeling towards our coaches, Blake or just Twin Lakes in general? Lots of thoughts being thrown around,but its done. I really just wanted to get a feel if this has ever happened this same way before. Not really to Bash a terrible Ref. because i hate to type and dont want to go on forever. I do believe it is a hard job and there are a lot of great Refs out there. Just not this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Many officials aren't strong enough to stand up to coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 My older son, who used to wrestle in Ohio had a teammate that got penalized in a similar manner. He was wrestling the final match of a day of a 5 match dual tournament. He dislocated his elbow in the 3rd period of a tight match. He somehow kept wrestling and the match went into OT. The kid had a high pain threshold. The kid miraculously found a way to get a takedown basically with one arm and won the match. It was amazing. During the formal handshake, the wrestler put out his good arm while his injured arm was tucked in to protect himself. The losing wrestler intentionally grabbed the bad arm with the dislocated elbow and shook it hard. Our wrestler of course gave him the old "F Bomb you". The ref immediately hit him with a flagrant misconduct and made him forfeit the match he just won and the four others that he won that day. Ohio had the you miss the next meet rule, but didnt matter as the kid was out for the season. That was one of the most bogus calls I have ever seen. I guess with profanity, its subjective up to the ref how he calls it. But I think the refs should give them the a warning and benefit of the doubt as the penalty is quite severe. I hope there was no bias or malice towards Twin Lakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbomb Turk Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 At worst this should have probably been unsportsmanlike conduct and -1 match point and not a team point since it was during the match. Common sense should have taken over and the ref should've realized that sometimes when people are injured words come out of their mouths that normally wouldn't have. Too bad he had to sit out a match but at least he had one to sit out before the sectional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlittlejohn Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 This is the reply from Tom Clark, which he posted himself, in the "Ask the Official" section in regard to this same situation. Also, Fragrant Misconduct is a -3 team point penalty. Flagrant Misconduct is any physical or non-physical act on the part of the coach or contestant which occurs before, during or after the match considered by the referee to serious enough for disqualification. Profanity is considered Flagrant Misconduct. The National Federation and the IHSAA have emphasized good sportsmanship and any language not acceptable in the classroom will not be acceptable in athletics. Tom Clark IHSAA Rules Interpreter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Flagrant Misconduct is any physical or non-physical act on the part of the coach or contestant which occurs before, during or after the match considered by the referee to serious enough for disqualification. Profanity is considered Flagrant Misconduct. The National Federation and the IHSAA have emphasized good sportsmanship and any language not acceptable in the classroom will not be acceptable in athletics. Tom Clark IHSAA Rules Interpreter Sounds like the referee had the right to make the call. Act with class from the top down and this stuff usually doesn't happen. Sounds like your boy unfortunately got the brunt of something not caused by him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsfangms Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 That's probably what should of happened. Yes team point then second team point I believe was for our coach getting upset. Opposing coach said he never wanted him to get DQ'd just wanted point. Is that true ? I hope so. Watching him pump fist was tough for Blake to watch. The question is did the Ref. just not know rules? Is there more to the story? Bad feeling towards our coaches, Blake or just Twin Lakes in general? Lots of thoughts being thrown around,but its done. I really just wanted to get a feel if this has ever happened this same way before. Not really to Bash a terrible Ref. because i hate to type and dont want to go on forever. I do believe it is a hard job and there are a lot of great Refs out there. Just not this one. Bad referee? He used inappropriate language, hurt or not, he has to own what he said. It was clearly offensive enough for the referee to DQ him. I tried to stay off this one because I know not everyone will see my point of view, which is fine, but we talk about this being a gentleman's sport and how we need to show respect and shake hands and on and on, but when a referee makes a judgement call and DQ's a wrestler for using inappropriate language, we attack the person who has the authority. As the rule is written and interpreted, the referee was well within his right to make the call he did. Look, the excuse that he was "injured" was used, however, it seems more like he was "hurt" considering he was planning on wrestling the remainder of the event, so perhaps the use of such language could have been avoided and this referee would not have been put in the position to make such a call. Hopefully something is learned by the young man and he moves on to be a productive member of society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Bad referee? He used inappropriate language, hurt or not, he has to own what he said. It was clearly offensive enough for the referee to DQ him. I tried to stay off this one because I know not everyone will see my point of view, which is fine, but we talk about this being a gentleman's sport and how we need to show respect and shake hands and on and on, but when a referee makes a judgement call and DQ's a wrestler for using inappropriate language, we attack the person who has the authority. As the rule is written and interpreted, the referee was well within his right to make the call he did. Look, the excuse that he was "injured" was used, however, it seems more like he was "hurt" considering he was planning on wrestling the remainder of the event, so perhaps the use of such language could have been avoided and this referee would not have been put in the position to make such a call. Hopefully something is learned by the young man and he moves on to be a productive member of society. +1 We all make mistakes. As this poster says...we need to "own" them and learn from them. I hope this young man figures it out and grows from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatDad21 Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Bad referee? He used inappropriate language, hurt or not, he has to own what he said. It was clearly offensive enough for the referee to DQ him. I tried to stay off this one because I know not everyone will see my point of view, which is fine, but we talk about this being a gentleman's sport and how we need to show respect and shake hands and on and on, but when a referee makes a judgement call and DQ's a wrestler for using inappropriate language, we attack the person who has the authority. As the rule is written and interpreted, the referee was well within his right to make the call he did. Look, the excuse that he was "injured" was used, however, it seems more like he was "hurt" considering he was planning on wrestling the remainder of the event, so perhaps the use of such language could have been avoided and this referee would not have been put in the position to make such a call. Hopefully something is learned by the young man and he moves on to be a productive member of society. yes everyone has right to a opinion and knew it would happen. Just rembember During the course of any season there are any number of Rules which are misinterpreted or incorrectly applied. Some referees are just not that very good especially ones that don't go to meetings and stay updated on rules. Some just do minimum to keep collecting a check. Yes he has owned this and handled it well . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatDad21 Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 My older son, who used to wrestle in Ohio had a teammate that got penalized in a similar manner. He was wrestling the final match of a day of a 5 match dual tournament. He dislocated his elbow in the 3rd period of a tight match. He somehow kept wrestling and the match went into OT. The kid had a high pain threshold. The kid miraculously found a way to get a takedown basically with one arm and won the match. It was amazing. During the formal handshake, the wrestler put out his good arm while his injured arm was tucked in to protect himself. The losing wrestler intentionally grabbed the bad arm with the dislocated elbow and shook it hard. Our wrestler of course gave him the old "F Bomb you". The ref immediately hit him with a flagrant misconduct and made him forfeit the match he just won and the four others that he won that day. Ohio had the you miss the next meet rule, but didnt matter as the kid was out for the season. That was one of the most bogus calls I have ever seen. I guess with profanity, its subjective up to the ref how he calls it. But I think the refs should give them the a warning and benefit of the doubt as the penalty is quite severe. I hope there was no bias or malice towards Twin Lakes. Sorry that happened thanks for the post and info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsfangms Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 yes everyone has right to a opinion and knew it would happen. Just rembember During the course of any season there are any number of Rules which are misinterpreted or incorrectly applied. Some referees are just not that very good especially ones that don't go to meetings and stay updated on rules. Some just do minimum to keep collecting a check. Yes he has owned this and handled it well . I'm not trying to debate you, but I am curious, after reading the rule that was provided, do you feel that this referee misinterpreted the rule and thus gave an inappropriate punishment as a result? I understand it's your son and it is unfortunate that he didn't get the opportunity to win that 4th title, but in your initial post you give the indication that you felt the referee was in the wrong, I just don't see it that way. Good luck to your son this post season, I hope he gets over that Friday night hump, he was right there last year, I mean this sincerely by the way, sometimes meaning gets lost in print. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatDad21 Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'm not trying to debate you, but I am curious, after reading the rule that was provided, do you feel that this referee misinterpreted the rule and thus gave an inappropriate punishment as a result? I understand it's your son and it is unfortunate that he didn't get the opportunity to win that 4th title, but in your initial post you give the indication that you felt the referee was in the wrong, I just don't see it that way. Good luck to your son this post season, I hope he gets over that Friday night hump, he was right there last year, I mean this sincerely by the way, sometimes meaning gets lost in print. yes I do believe it was to harsh of a punishment for the situation. That statement in bold is what I got from IHSAA. Well a part of it. After talking with other refs including ones there that day they would have handled that much differently as I believe most would do. I would feel the same if it happened to any other wrestler as you saw in my post about another situation with a broken arm and after the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsfangms Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 It's fine that others would do it differently from the poll you took, but you keep avoiding whether by the rule provided, the referee was in the wrong. I'm not asking your opinion, I'm asking that after reading the rule and interpreting, can we agree that the referee in question was well within his right to make the decision he did. All I'm saying is that the referee didn't deserve the criticism when he made the right call. You may not have agreed or liked it, but he was well within his right. I understand that not everything is black and white, and the grey world we live in provides referees some latitude, but in your son's case, the referee made the correct call, give the guy at least that much, if anyone is wrong it's you for blasting the guy for making the right call. I promise you, this is my last response to the post, as someone who is regularly questioned by decisions I make with people's children, I feel for the referees out there, especially when they are right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatDad21 Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 It's fine that others would do it differently from the poll you took, but you keep avoiding whether by the rule provided, the referee was in the wrong. I'm not asking your opinion, I'm asking that after reading the rule and interpreting, can we agree that the referee in question was well within his right to make the decision he did. All I'm saying is that the referee didn't deserve the criticism when he made the right call. You may not have agreed or liked it, but he was well within his right. I understand that not everything is black and white, and the grey world we live in provides referees some latitude, but in your son's case, the referee made the correct call, give the guy at least that much, if anyone is wrong it's you for blasting the guy for making the right call. I promise you, this is my last response to the post, as someone who is regularly questioned by decisions I make with people's children, I feel for the referees out there, especially when they are right! Sincere and not make a debate. Right. I guess it goes deeper than that like ref telling my son I don't know the rule on this but watch your language before making the call. I believe he made that decision because he did not know the rules And thought he had to DQ him. After seeing him interact with my son right after the incident he did not act like hat had happened was severe enough. You will never be happy with anything I say except the ref was right and I will never say that. I started this post so I could find out from all of Indiana wrestling fans and their knowledge if this Situation has ever happened before in the same way. Not to just rip on ref. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsfangms Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'm not addressing the topic, I'm done, but wanted you to know that I was sincere when I wished your son well, and you can't make a debate, you engage in one, which I was not trying to do with you, just pointing out what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmak Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 fudgenutter!!!!!! now, where is my ice cream!!!!!! I hear they are passing out DQ in here if you curse. isnt that the name of this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allritecoach Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Had a referee earlier this year change a flagrant misconduct to unsportsmanlike conduct after a kid took a swing at one of our wrestlers. At the end of the meet he told me he did that so the kid could continue to wrestle the rest of the day and not lose the next meet either. By the rules that wasn't right, but I completely agreed with him. The wrestler was on a fairly new team and the Coach couldn't have apologized more so I had no problem with it. We all have seen times when the referees changed a call for the greater good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 If there's questionable calls that aren't liked, become a ref and show everybody how it's done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headlock83 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I was there and can tell you that the call was pure BS. If it would have been my son, DQed I would have had to be escorted out by police. The kid yelled something because his shoulder popped causing great pain. It was an involuntary response. It was not audible from the stands. He did not direct the profanity at anyone. This kid has never shown poor sportsmanship in the 4 years I have watched him wrestle. He is truly a class act. He accepted this BS call with grace and dignity. I would have flipped out if the call was made on me. I would have shown that official what true misconduct really was, trust me. What makes matters worse, is that the official wasn't going to do anything about it until the opposing coach got in the official's ear. Make the call or don't! But for the love of GOD don't let the opposing coach make the call. I hate that crap. I don't normally bad mouth an official because it is one of the world's hardest jobs and mistakes are going to be made. However, this was a senseless mistake. The way it was handled was unethical at best. The punishment didn't fit the crime for sure. I have been around wrestling for 45 years and have heard profanities slip out of the mouths of hundreds of wrestlers and never was one DQed. I have seen wrestlers shove other wrestlers out of bounds and bark FU and nothing more than a warning was given. I certainly hope that this young official learned something from this. I agree that sportsmanship is an important lesson to teach our kids, but this was not a learning lesson, it was an overly aggressive application of a rule that isn't even close to being consistently called. If that kid would have been unable to wrestle sectionals, it would have been a travesty. I realize that being a 3 time state qualifier doesn't provide a young man with special considerations, but that is what was at stake when this opposing coach was allowed to make the call. Too much at stake to make a call like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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