layinlow Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 We attended a tournament yesterday and a school had two wrestlers entered in one weight class. Is this a new procedure? One was a nonscoring participant, however, in a bracket it effects the outcome of the finals? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki27 Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 Was it a varsity or JV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layinlow Posted November 24, 2013 Author Share Posted November 24, 2013 Varsity tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layinlow Posted November 24, 2013 Author Share Posted November 24, 2013 I rechecked the results it did not impact the 1st and second place finishers. Third place was orginally awarded to the nonscoring participant until it was "challenged". The fourth place finisher then got 3rd. Don't know what happened with the rest. My question is, should this of even happened? There were spots to fill in every weight class but one. Teams had extra wrestlers, but thats what wrestle offs are for. I also don't believe anyone in that weight class that lost to the nonscoring wrestler should count that lose to his record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 I wish more regular season individual varsity tournaments would do this. Not County or Conference meets, of course. Some schools have JV wrestlers who are capable of being varsity at many other schools, but have a couple of studs on their team that keeps them from getting varsity experience. In multi-dual events, they might be able to get a couple of varsity matches in, but at individual tournaments, they can't. While this definitely isn't normal here in Indiana, my team used to compete at a varsity tournament in Ohio where they allowed us to enter multiple kids in a weight class. We'd only enter extras if there was room in the bracket and if we felt our 2nd string guy was capable of competing well at a varsity tournament. It was great experience for our younger guys. We counted all their wins and losses at that tournament toward their overall record, and so did all the other teams who we faced. There are teams in Indiana who, at times, field a 2nd varsity dual team either at the same dual event or a different one. The rules allow this, and all those matches count as varsity for everyone. Why would it be any different at an individual tournament? How can one team count it as varsity, but not the other? If your team's coach really has a problem with this one situation, then he needs to address it to the event's tournament director. If the coach still has a problem with how the tournament is run, then find a different tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Brown Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 I rechecked the results it did not impact the 1st and second place finishers. Third place was orginally awarded to the nonscoring participant until it was "challenged". The fourth place finisher then got 3rd. Don't know what happened with the rest. My question is, should this of even happened? There were spots to fill in every weight class but one. Teams had extra wrestlers, but thats what wrestle offs are for. I also don't believe anyone in that weight class that lost to the nonscoring wrestler should count that lose to his record. I was not made aware of the nonscoring wrestler in that particular bracket, until sometime midway through the tournament. This was a oversight on my part due to the fact that I was making copies of the weigh-in sheets for coaches to have for their team. With the number of teams that did not return some weight class pools only had 4 or five wrestlers; to answer you question in short no. However, one of the goals of the tournament is to get the wresters at least five matches. The tournament manger allowed this so the the wrestlers' mat time. In the future, I envision the John Hurrle Memorial Tournament to be likened to the Al Smith, Spartan Classic, etc...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layinlow Posted November 24, 2013 Author Share Posted November 24, 2013 I am simply asking a question as to the rules. I understand the oversite by Coach Brown, not trying to put blame on you or your program or your tournament. The coach from that school knew he had two in that weight class, wrestling coaches are too on top of things to not know which one of their kids are wrestling that day. If it would of been open to all schools to put multiple wrestlers in a weight class, it wouldn't be a problem. Never seen that happen before and wanted if it was something new for this year is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 I am simply asking a question as to the rules. I understand the oversite by Coach Brown, not trying to put blame on you or your program or your tournament. The coach from that school knew he had two in that weight class, wrestling coaches are too on top of things to not know which one of their kids are wrestling that day. If it would of been open to all schools to put multiple wrestlers in a weight class, it wouldn't be a problem. Never seen that happen before and wanted if it was something new for this year is all. It happened a lot last year. It should happen more often. If a tournament is not full. Coaches should Try and fill the tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Brown Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 I am simply asking a question as to the rules. I understand the oversite by Coach Brown, not trying to put blame on you or your program or your tournament. The coach from that school knew he had two in that weight class, wrestling coaches are too on top of things to not know which one of their kids are wrestling that day. If it would of been open to all schools to put multiple wrestlers in a weight class, it wouldn't be a problem. Never seen that happen before and wanted if it was something new for this year is all. It's all good man 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambers Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 I am simply asking a question as to the rules. I understand the oversite by Coach Brown, not trying to put blame on you or your program or your tournament. The coach from that school knew he had two in that weight class, wrestling coaches are too on top of things to not know which one of their kids are wrestling that day. If it would of been open to all schools to put multiple wrestlers in a weight class, it wouldn't be a problem. Never seen that happen before and wanted if it was something new for this year is all. There is no rule in the wrestling rulebook that says you cannot enter more than one wrestler from the same team in a tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKONRATH83 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 There is no rule in the wrestling rulebook that says you cannot enter more than one wrestler from the same team in a tournament. If that is true, obviously that will raise questions for sectionals, on. What is the rule for that, if any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 If that is true, obviously that will raise questions for sectionals, on. What is the rule for that, if any? really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 If that is true, obviously that will raise questions for sectionals, on. What is the rule for that, if any? I don't have the exact wording in front of me, but in terms of the state tournament series the rules say a school is able to enter one individual per weight class. I do know some state allow for additional state tournament entries per weight per school, but Indiana does not allow it. I'm not sure the rules address this type of in season issue regarding multiple entries to an event from the same school. I would guess a possible sticking point with this issue would be if the additional entry would end up winning matches which would prevent another teams wrestler from gaining additional points for their team. The closest thing I know of to addressing the multiple entry issue is that the IHSAA by-laws do mention a school is allowed to field more than one team. Though this may have been put in place to allow for JV and Freshman teams to compete it is vague enough to bring about the advent of Varsity 2 teams, so some schools can find a way to get their kids additional competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Brown Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I don't have the exact wording in front of me, but in terms of the state tournament series the rules specifically say a school is able to enter one individual per weight class. I do know some state allow for additional state tournament entries per weight per school, but Indiana does not allow it. I'm not sure the rules address this type of in season issue regarding multiple entries to an event from the same school. I would guess a possible sticking point with this issue would be if the additional entry would end up winning matches which would prevent another teams wrestler from gaining additional points for their team. The closest thing I know of to addressing the multiple entry issue is that the IHSAA by-laws do mention a school is allowed to field more than one team. Though this may have been put in place to allow for JV and Freshman teams to compete it is vague enough to bring about the advent of Varsity 2 teams, so some schools can find a way to get their kids additional competition. For sectionals you can enter up to a total of 28 entries per school; alternates are entered on the sectional roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 For sectionals you can enter up to a total of 28 entries per school; alternates are entered on the sectional roster. Sorry if my wording of "entry" wasn't specific enough, I was referring to entries in the actual state tournament bracket per school for the sectional competition, not the sectional entry roster which can include alternates in case a replacement is needed. In the sectional brackets you are only able to have one wrestler per school per weight-class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKONRATH83 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 really... Hey I wasn't saying I'd want it to be that way. I'm just saying, from personal experience, I know there are people that would try to manipulate a rule that is open ended. Me personally, I feel that only varsity kids should wrestle in varsity tournaments. Of course an alternate being aloud if the coach needs or wants to use one in place of his varsity wrestler. But there is no reason for one school to wrestle two wrestlers in one weight class. So chill jchas I'm not trying to destroy tourney time just wanting it clarified if this topic is going to bring out the loop hole lovers. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Some of the arguments on here are just so far fetched. The point here is should JV guys get a chance to fill empty spots in a regular season tournament. I would say that most coaches would say yes. There are a few guys on every team that are to good for JV tournaments. Please give me a good reason they should not be able to fill empty spots. Please keep in mind. We are not talking about The tournaments that people really care about the team score, County, conference and the like are excluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Please give me a good reason they should not be able to fill empty spots. I'm not saying these are issue I particularly take issue with, but I could imagine they could come up by someone (coaches, parents, IHSAA) if they wanted to debate if a team should be allowed to have an additional entries in a regular season event. Since the event is only filling a few open spots someone may take issue the selection of which JV wrestlers get in while others are left out. Basing qualification on previous JV results doesn't always cut it as a reasonable argument when organizing these events. Though they may end up being none scoring entries, the additional wrestler could take out another teams wrestler that was a scored entry which would affect both the individual and team finish for the school. It could affect a tournaments seeding, and if the none scoring wrestler automatically goes in unseeded it could create some controversy if the other teams varsity wrestler could possibly lose that opening match. Some debate still exists over if we should have "Varsity 2" teams and how the match should be count. Since this would create an opportunity to get two wrestlers at the same weight varsity matches within the same individual event to get varsity matches it could add to the argument over "Varsity 2." Another "Varsity 2" related issue would be how to you count the total team contest points (since that gets cloudy with individual contest points) since you could essentially be creating another team with the additional entry at the same weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambers Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 If that is true, obviously that will raise questions for sectionals, on. What is the rule for that, if any? The IHSAA By-Laws say that you can only have one wrestler per school on the sectional bracket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerBacker Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 One of my wrestlers was directly effected by this he beat the "extra wrestler" who went into the finals with a 1-3 record wrestling for 3-4.....where as my guy had a record of 3-1 was wrestling for 5-6 because of the way the pools went shouldn't first criteria be head to head matchups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NICfan Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 One of my wrestlers was directly effected by this he beat the "extra wrestler" who went into the finals with a 1-3 record wrestling for 3-4.....where as my guy had a record of 3-1 was wrestling for 5-6 because of the way the pools went shouldn't first criteria be head to head matchups? are you sure he went 1-3? Because if you do pools, first criteria would actually be record. If he was 3-1 also then it would have been a 3 way tie for first in the pool and likely go by team points. If his record was in fact 1-3 then whoever was working it must have mixed the records up or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Jeff Classic did this last year. and allowed each team to enter an extra wrestler in one weight class. This satisfied all teams for the most part. But if a guy gets beat, a guy gets beat, right? Who cares if its a scorer or non scorer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Jeff Classic did this last year. and allowed each team to enter an extra wrestler in one weight class. This satisfied all teams for the most part. But if a guy gets beat, a guy gets beat, right? Who cares if its a scorer or non scorer? Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Jeff Classic did this last year. and allowed each team to enter an extra wrestler in one weight class. This satisfied all teams for the most part. But if a guy gets beat, a guy gets beat, right? Who cares if its a scorer or non scorer? I liked that a lot last year. We were able to make an "extra" team so that the tournament would have 16 teams. It worked out very well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I made the suggestion last year that at each tournament coaches should try and have an exhibition mat. It could even be in the wrestling room if schools did not have enough room. I would not have to go on all day. Maybe for just a few hours sometime during the day. This mat would be for the guys who are very close to Varsity level. Coaches could then try and pair up some quality matches for these wrestlers. I know that it is sometime very hard to find quality mat time for these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts