Team State Debate

[Y2CJ41]

 

Last spring the four class events combined to draw 438,430 spectators, [glow=red,2,300]a little more than half as many as the final single-class tournament[/glow]. Postseason basketball has been like the weak candidate at the top of a ticket, dragging down interest during the regular season, too.

 

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1027660/index.htm#ixzz14eVVg86q

 

This is from a few years ago, but I doubt the revenue has raised since then.

 

 

 

 

I don't know for sure but aren't Yorktown, and Roncalli smaller?  What about he team Atwood is from?  MD has around 500 students.

I loved the constant bashing about how classing hurt the sport, but this quote really stuck out.

Student attendance and participation have suffered, too. "Kids are turning to other things-movies, DVDs, computers," says Steve Schindler, Anderson's athletic director. "Businesses are open later, and kids are more mobile, out working to pay for gas and insurance for their cars."

I wonder how much this has an affect on attendance not only in basketball, but really any sport.  

 

It also says that the small schools are losing as much as $5000 in revenue each year.  I am baffled that since these are the same schools that pushed for class basketball are not pushing to change it back to get that revenue back.  

 

[Y2CJ41]

Dude you are pretty set in your ideas that is obvious and I respect your opinion.  Did you read the article?  You asked for facts and you got facts.  You just don't like some of these facts because they do not  your very strong opinion.

 

These enrollment numbers here flat out show that the idea that small schools can't compete in the Team State or individual state to be just plain false.

 

Bellmont 894

Yorktown 680

Mater Dei 564

Delphi 522

Garrett?

I have done plenty of research on this subject, so it is fun to have someone else do it.  I read the article it was constant bashing of class basketball.  I find it interesting how everyone is losing money, yet they haven't changed it back.  Everyone is in agreement the IHSAA LOVES money, so if they are losing money on this they would be the first ones to change it back.... I would think.

 

Where do those schools stand in comparison to the other 310 wrestling schools?  Would they be in the big school(upper half) or small school(lower half) in terms of enrollment.

[Y2CJ41]

Y2,

 

Are you willing to compromise at all? Everyone plain and simple will not agree with everything you propose (hence the last 14 pages), so look for a compromise you can get most to support! I do not think classing team state is best but if it will get us 90% support of the wrestling community behind it to make a strong represented proposal to IHSAA then I would agree to it, but you really remind me of the child that takes his ball and leaves because he doesn't get his way! I think it is very important to keep team state in some form.

I think we should go to one weight class, so we have a true state champion.  I hate this 14 weight class, give everyone a ribbon crap we have now

 

I am on your side, are you happy?

[Y2CJ41]

By the way, here is a link with attendance at the state finals for about every year.

 

http://pastbb.homestead.com/files/boyschart.htm

 

Notice before the Damon Bailey era they were getting around 32,000 at the state finals.  In 2010 they had 30,000 in attendance.  Indiana basketball attendance definitely peaked during the Damon Bailey years when there were over 76,000 in attendance.

[Y2CJ41]

Well dude if you want to use anecdotal evidence to counter facts, I am all for it.  You don't see as many old folks at these games either.  Maybe granny is over there facebooking are whatever.  

 

Do you honestly think that the destuction of the local nature of the sectional bball tournies have nothing to do with the decrease in interest?

I think that when Conseco is being sold out each year, there is still plenty of interest in the sport.  That is much better than what our magical one class wrestling tournament can do.

[Y2CJ41]

Uhh, YT, MD and Delphi?  What about Garrett?

 

Dude most of the other 310 wrestling schools suck regardless of class.

Thanks for the response, it will be well noted that you seem to not be able to answer the question.  Again, what class would these schools be in a two and/or three class tournament?

[Y2CJ41]

That is not the figure I quoted.  THere were not 400,000 plus at the state finals.  That is the entire tournament.  I believe if almost a half million people went to the finals that would be the most at any event ever wouldn't it?

So if class basketball was so destructive to our heritage and mostly our POCKETBOOKS, why haven't they changed it back?  This is an honest question, if I am losing money doing something and the old way I was doing it as making me money, I am going to go back to the old way.  I would hope the IHSAA and all the schools that are hurting because of this grave mistake would do the same thing.  Do you not feel the same way?  I am baffled why a bunch of ADs and Principals would continue to let their schools lose $5000 a year especially in these times where they could really use that money.

[Y2CJ41]

Have you considered that wrestling is not necessarily that popular of a sport in Indiana?

It is like the 3rd or 4th best money maker for the IHSAA, it is behind football and boys basketball and tied with girls basketball.  

 

Wouldn't those four be in the smaller class?  Most of the schools smaller than that have real trouble even fielding full teams.

Yorktown is on the bubble, they are directly on the 155 mark and would flip flop on big and small school status.   But we can call them small I don't care.

Delphi is a small school

Mater Dei is a small school, but also charges $5000 to go there.  There are plenty of advantages that go with students that have parents that can afford $20,000 on their high school education.

Garrett would be a small school, but we aren't even close to the level of the other three.

 

So since Mater Dei can have a small school powerhouse any small school can?  Is that what you are getting at?

[Y2CJ41]

It's like government programs man.  Once the cat is out of the bag it is difficult to get it back in.  

I find that difficult to believe.  We both know the IHSAA likes to base decisions on money.  For instance, they gave us team state and now are saying they will take it away because it doesn't make much money.  Why aren't they saying that about class sports?

 

If the IHSAA is willing to take team state away because of money, they definitely won't be shy against taking away classed sports because of money.  

[Y2CJ41]

Forget basketball.  

 

Doesn't the awesome accomplishment over the course of a grueling month just to make it to state mean anything to you and your kids?  I've seen some talented Garrett kids over the course of the last couple years.

 

Anyway Y2, thanks for the site and we will help you see the light some other time.

I would suspect making it to state will be a great accomplishment for any kid whether it is a single class or multiple classes.  I know from friends in other classed states that it was a big accomplishment to them.  I personally do not believe that the kids and coaches will strive for anything less.  

 

Last year I talked to a former Indiana coach that coached in another classed state for a year.  He simply told me, "when you are in the state championship, you are in the state championship the kids do not care that it is classed."

[Big Hawaiian]

I think we should go to one weight class, so we have a true state champion.  I hate this 14 weight class, give everyone a ribbon crap we have now

 

I am on your side, are you happy?

 

Heres the brutal truth big guy, Build your program and get better and quit waiting for the rules to do it for you..... Many other small programs have done it!

[Y2CJ41]

Well they are doing something right at Yorktown.  Again, you would have to probably reduce weight classes in order to get any kind of tourny with schools less than 680 kids.  There would be forfeits all over the place.

So you can name three out of 155 schools that are having success in the current system.  Can you please tell me about some of the other 152 schools?

[Y2CJ41]

Heres the brutal truth big guy, Build your program and get better and quit waiting for the rules to do it for you.....

Thanks for that advice.  Can I have your phone number so I can call you when I want more advice from you?

 

You are completely right, I am the laziest coach in the state. 

[Y2CJ41]

And Y2 if it is such a good money maker and a small school has won it a dozen or so times in its short existence, then what is the problem? 

Why has it been the same small school and not numerous others?

 

Your little school tourney wouldn't be as presigious as some of the tournies that those little schools would wrestle in during the year.

That is a matter of opinion.  I feel that everyone would strive to be the best and come home with the blue medal at state.

 

And dude I coached in AZ and their state tourney was not that big of a deal.  There was not build up to it.  If you weren't a total fish (top 4 out of a 6 team conference) you were in. 

Dude, did the kids celebrate winning a state championship or throw their medals in the trash?

 

Our state is not very populous and 2 let alone 3 wresltling tournaments would be cheesy.

Oh yes, just as cheesy as Wisconsin's class system or as cheesy as Iowa's class system.  Those are two states really close that are very similar to Indiana.

[Y2CJ41]

Well dude welfare was created to "end poverty"

 

Has it done that?  Does it look like it is headed in that direction?  THen why are we still doing it?  Did everyone who "needed" it just die before that ?

Dude, I am glad you can answer my questions this way.  I didn't know the IHSAA was a part of the poverty problem.

[Big Hawaiian]

Thanks for that advice.  Can I have your phone number so I can call you when I want more advice from you?

 

You are completely right, I am the laziest coach in the state. 

 

Did not say that nor imply it but other small programs have had great team and individuals who have placed and or have won state. Do you have a strong club from k - 12? What percentage of your kids in your program wrestle in the summer. Whos the pied piper getting the word out and support from your community? How strong are your asst coaches and how many do you have in your program? I've seen you at summer tournaments but how many of your kids k-12 are out there with you? Has far as I know your a good coach and you obviously care, but only you and the questions above will get your program where you want it.

[ENoblewrestling]

Y2 you keep saying this is to help the really bad schools, but in a class system why wouldn't they still be really bad?  I mean its not like if they class the thing the last place teams in the tourny aee going to automatically become a better team.  If you finish last now they'd still get last in the small school tourny, they may get a few guys through here and there but not enough to change the program around.  I think it would help the middle and second tier teams much more than the really bad ones.  I also think a lot of the bad schools have more to their problems than the one class tourny.  You even stated earlier in this thread that a lot of it comes down to coaches with the comitment to make their teams better.  You stated this when talking about northrop.

[Y2CJ41]

Did not say that nor imply it but other small programs have had great team and individuals who have placed and or have won state.

Yes you did imply that I am a lazy coach.

 

Do you have a strong club from k - 12?

Probably the best club in northeast Indiana.

 

What percentage of your kids in your program wrestle in the summer.

My kids have to be shared with the other sports, so it is not as high as I would like.

 

Whos the pied piper getting the word out and support from your community?

Roddy Roddy Piper

 

How strong are your asst coaches and how many do you have in your program?

I am the assistant and we do not have as many as we would like.

 

I've seen you at summer tournaments but how many of your kids k-12 are out there with you?

Not as many as I would like.

 

Has far as I know your a good coach and you obviously care, but only you and the questions above will get your program where you want it.

No I gotta get better, remember you just told me that.

 

Here is some other information to chew on

10 of our 14 starters last year were 3 sport athletes

4 of our 14 starters were two sport athletes

 

[Y2CJ41]

Y2 you keep saying this is to help the really bad schools, but in a class system why wouldn't they still be really bad?  I mean its not like if they class the thing the last place teams in the tourny aee going to automatically become a better team.  If you finish last now they'd still get last in the small school tourny, they may get a few guys through here and there but not enough to change the program around.  I think it would help the middle and second tier teams much more than the really bad ones.  I also think a lot of the bad schools have more to their problems than the one class tourny.  You even stated earlier in this thread that a lot of it comes down to coaches with the comitment to make their teams better.  You stated this when talking about northrop.

Are you saying that getting more state qualifiers does not help a wrestling program?  Are you saying a program that gets zero state qualifiers now that all of a sudden gets a few here and there won't see an increase in support and enthusiasm?

[PreparetoWin]

Sorry to jump in this conversation, but did I read that right...wrestling is tied for third as the leading money maker in IHSAA sports? If that is true why are they thinking of cutting the team state and some schools getting rid of programs? I may have totally misunderstood that, sorry if i did...but if I didnt misread that you would think they would let us keep doing what we were doing and go bother another sport who is lower on the board than us.  Is the indvidual tournment losing money at conseco? or is it just the team state? if its just the team state that is broken why wouldnt we fix it first with classing or location or whatever? Then for those who are pro classing, this would be a big feather in the cap to say "look it worked here, why not individual"...if it didnt work and create buzz, excitement, larger fan base, etc. then we can assume it wouldnt work on the individual level either. Just thinking out loud, would like to get a couple answers to the my first couple questions, to even see if I read the post right...lol

[Y2CJ41]

Sorry to jump in this conversation, but did I read that right...wrestling is tied for third as the leading money maker in IHSAA sports? If that is true why are they thinking of cutting the team state and some schools getting rid of programs? I may have totally misunderstood that, sorry if i did...but if I didnt misread that you would think they would let us keep doing what we were doing and go bother another sport who is lower on the board than us.  Is the indvidual tournment losing money at conseco? or is it just the team state? if its just the team state that is broken why wouldnt we fix it first with classing or location or whatever? Then for those who are pro classing, this would be a big feather in the cap to say "look it worked here, why not individual"...if it didnt work and create buzz, excitement, larger fan base, etc. then we can assume it wouldnt work on the individual level either. Just thinking out loud, would like to get a couple answers to the my first couple questions, to even see if I read the post right...lol

The team series has seen a dramatic decrease in revenue lately.  Last year only 1,200 fans were in attendance and the total revenue from the whole state series was just over $4,000.  The previous year it was $8,500 and prior to that it was $23K in 2008, $18K in 2007 and $27K in 2006.  Attendance as gone from around 2500 to the 1200 mark last year.

 

[Big Hawaiian]

Yes you did imply that I am a lazy coach.

Probably the best club in northeast Indiana.

My kids have to be shared with the other sports, so it is not as high as I would like.

Roddy Roddy Piper

I am the assistant and we do not have as many as we would like.

Not as many as I would like.

No I gotta get better, remember you just told me that.

 

Here is some other information to chew on

10 of our 14 starters last year were 3 sport athletes

4 of our 14 starters were two sport athletes

 

 

Brother you dont have it any worse than most, we have 14 kids in the room until football ends. These are not reasons not to be sucessful, but you are the wrong person to lead much of anything with the way you communicate with people.

[Y2CJ41]

Brother you dont have it any worse than most, we have 14 kids in the room until football ends. These are not reasons not to be sucessful, but you are the wrong person to lead much of anything with the way you communicate with people.

Any more personal attacks you would like to make?  Am I fat, ugly or stupid too?  After talking with you I am probably one of the worst people in the whole world.  Not only do I now need to get better, but I am the wrong person to be coaching in this sport.  Can I honestly have your phone number to call when I really need someone to tell me how horrible of a person I am?

 

I really love threads that go from discussing classed sports to how terrible of a person I am. 

[Big Hawaiian]

Yes you did imply that I am a lazy coach.

Probably the best club in northeast Indiana.

My kids have to be shared with the other sports, so it is not as high as I would like.

Roddy Roddy Piper

I am the assistant and we do not have as many as we would like.

Not as many as I would like.

No I gotta get better, remember you just told me that.

 

Here is some other information to chew on

10 of our 14 starters last year were 3 sport athletes

4 of our 14 starters were two sport athletes

 

 

Why dont you work to get positive responses to the questions you blew off or had answers that are a big part of the reasons your not having the desired results your looking for. For instance if you get these kids early enough into your club and these kids learn and love the sport of wrestling it may be their #1 priorty sport instead of 3rd. Also the kids that aren't wrestling in the spring and summer wont be anymore sucessful in a class system then they are now! If your past wrestlers aren't coming back and helping coach and to help give back, then that tells me theres work to do within the program or they don't feel welcomed. Those are your future assistants, and if none  have returned from the past then thats a internal program issue! If the wrestlers that you coached that now have famlies and their kids aren't wrestling then ask yourself why. How long have you been there?

[Big Hawaiian]

Any more personal attacks you would like to make?  Am I fat, ugly or stupid too?  After talking with you I am probably one of the worst people in the whole world.  Not only do I now need to get better, but I am the wrong person to be coaching in this sport.  Can I honestly have your phone number to call when I really need someone to tell me how horrible of a person I am?

 

I really love threads that go from discussing classed sports to how terrible of a person I am.  

 

Dude I'm talking about the class wrestling movement but you love to twist things to poor you. The way you are condensending & sarcastic to people who disagree with you is very unnessary but I'm sure its ok to you the way you treat everyone, and I'm so wrong coming back at you in the same tone. I have never been in your room and have no clue how you coach so don't put those words in my mouth,but some of your responses tells me all I need to know about you as a communicator which affects I'm sure many of your efforts. I'm done with this men agree to disagree so lets try it!