Reasons for a class system for team state

[pin2win1]

Hey, he said ESPN didn;t show sports like that, they do however show the winter xgames, the viewership was never mentioned.

 

But let us think about why it had only 1 millon a day. BTW, that is household that watched, not people that watched. 3 or 4 people in each house may have watched it.

 

Lets look at the population, now males are more likey going to watch this kind of stuff than females. So most of over half the population that is unlikely to watch the games. Then lets think about this, my guess is that the over 30 crowd is not going to be watching the winter ex games, and well until you are about 12 you don;t have to opportunity to really control the TV, or have your own tv. So that takes down viewership. Not only that but often the boxed put on tvs by neilsens is done on the main tv i believe, and you can not survey poeple under the age of 18 directly. So yeah i think that skews the numbers.

 

X games, and much of the extreme winter games like moguls, freestyle sking, halfpipe, snow cross, ski, cross that are now in the olympics do cater to a younger crowd. But they are big amongst the younger crowd, expecially in the northwest, north east, and the rocky mountain areas.

[bigdanteague]

Hey, he said ESPN didn;t show sports like that, they do however show the winter xgames, the viewership was never mentioned.

 

 

No he didn't.  Why are you twisting his words??  Why should I ever believe you when you blatantly misrepresent Galagore?

[pin2win1]

Well who would dispute that baseball is smaller than winter sports? Does it mean winter sports are neglected throughout the United States? Umm no! Maybe here in Indiana where the biggest mountain we have is actually the size of a mole hill it is ;-). But winter sports are not neglected throughout the entirity of the united states.

 

 

But since you want to use baseball, lets use baseball. Why is it that the US no longer has the best players? Why is it that we get our butts kicked in baseball by latin american teams and asian teams? Why is it that we didn;t even make the olympics in Athens? I mean we are bigger than almost every other country, and we are losing to the likes of South Korea, Venezuela, cuba, and japan. These are countries that are the size of some states.

 

Let me answer it for you, i am sure you re going to say that soccer is more popular than little league, well it has been for years now, yet if that is the case, shouldn't our soccer team be winning it all every time they go out and play? i mean most of those europen and latin american countries are smaller than us, therefore we should be dominating them according to Y2, yet for some reason we aren't... hmmmm.

[Y2CJ41]

pin2win1,

I will address the personal vendetta you have against myself and the team I coach.

 

First off, please check this topic and read is extremely carefully.

http://indianamat.com/messageboard/index.php/topic,10473.0.html

Please check for these key words, Schendel, McCray, and Garrett.  You may just find them in there and you may not.

 

Secondly, if you are going to be at any of the spring freestyle/folkstyle meets please notify me and if we are sending kids that way I will gladly let you drill them on my coaching.  You can ask them if I have ever made the excuse of losing to a big school or if they feel my coaching is affected by my "whining" about class wrestling as you put it.

 

Thirdly, maybe I am just a tad biased, but the coaching staff at Garrett is doing something right.  I have yet to put my finger on it, but I will tell you that there is a top team's coach that has literally been begging for us to join their tournament for the past two or three years. I am not sure if it is to add fluff to this tournament or to add quality to it, but I know that every time I see the coach he asks me when will we have an opening.  I won't mention names, but it is a tournament in north central Indiana during the holidays.

[bigdanteague]

 

But let us think about why it had only 1 millon a day. BTW, that is household that watched, not people that watched. 3 or 4 people in each house may have watched it.

 

Lets look at the population, now males are more likey going to watch this kind of stuff than females. So most of over half the population that is unlikely to watch the games. Then lets think about this, my guess is that the over 30 crowd is not going to be watching the winter ex games, and well until you are about 12 you don;t have to opportunity to really control the TV, or have your own tv. So that takes down viewership. Not only that but often the boxed put on tvs by neilsens is done on the main tv i believe, and you can not survey poeple under the age of 18 directly. So yeah i think that skews the numbers.

 

X games, and much of the extreme winter games like moguls, freestyle sking, halfpipe, snow cross, ski, cross that are now in the olympics do cater to a younger crowd. But they are big amongst the younger crowd, expecially in the northwest, north east, and the rocky mountain areas.

 

That all adds up to a niche sport to me.  A skid mark on the American sporting landscape.

[MatChick76]

I tried to read all 24 pages of posts, but after 30 minutes, and 9 pages, my head is pounding.  I am not for class wrestling.  I do not support class wrestling.  I like the one-class system which is, in my humble opinion, a true championship.  You can't change the Team Tourney without messing with the Individual Tourney - and having multiple champions for each weight class at the Individual Tourney, would just kill it all...the atmosphere, the work ethic, the undeniable knowldege of knowing YOU ARE THE BEST (not one of the 3 best...when you get 3rd place you know you're one of the top 3 in the state...but clearly...someone was better - just look to the top of the podium if you want to know who).

 

Keep Indiana Wrestling Class-less!

[Y2CJ41]

I tried to read all 24 pages of posts, but after 30 minutes, and 9 pages, my head is pounding.  I am not for class wrestling.  I do not support class wrestling.  I like the one-class system which is, in my humble opinion, a true championship.  You can't change the Team Tourney without messing with the Individual Tourney - and having multiple champions for each weight class at the Individual Tourney, would just kill it all...the atmosphere, the work ethic, the undeniable knowldege of knowing YOU ARE THE BEST (not one of the 3 best...when you get 3rd place you know you're one of the top 3 in the state...but clearly...someone was better - just look to the top of the podium if you want to know who).

 

Keep Indiana Wrestling Class-less!

I guess David Taylor or the Steibers don't work hard in Ohio.  They sure act like they work hard.

 

If you get third place in our tournament you aren't the true third place finisher.  You could be ask low as the 6th best depending upon the draw.  You could also be the second best kid, but get third place.  The only "true" placing is first and that even is debated sometimes.

[pin2win1]

y2,

 

Before I go to the link I must say a few things

 

I have no vendetta against you or your team. You think because i disagree with you that i have a vendetta against you, I don't. I respect you, I repsect all wrestling schools. I just disgree with you.

 

I said in one post that I was glad to see Garrett wrestlers at state this year, although it may have happened before, i do not remember ever seeing a garrett wrestler at state. i believe from your post as well as the posts of others you work hard. And I was glad that it paid off for you and your wrestlers.

 

As for the excuse, well quite frankly you may never have told your kids to their faces that they are at a disdvantage, but if they ever came on thisboard (which i am guessing some do) you are indirectly giving them the excuse that they can't compete with the much larger schools.

 

But in no way, do i have a "vendetta" against you. And quite frankly i resent the fact that you are projecting the fact that I have a vendetta against you on me.

[AJ]

attendance is down 6 percent from last year.  Just saying that baseball is still HUGE! not it's own little niche

 

I think you would argue that an orange isn't orange.

 

what are you talking about?  do you even know what you are talking about?

 

I never said baseball had a niche....

 

I think you just like to see yourself think and try to make points or valid arguments.....

[AJ]

That all adds up to a niche sport to me.  A skid mark on the American sporting landscape.

 

well in that case, then wrestling is a niche sport as well so what is the point of all this conversation......

[pin2win1]

Y2, glad to see you are traveling up to caveman territory. Do you think that bringing kids to the Mishawaka wrestling room might be one of the many factors of your success..... also I could be wrong on this, but didn't you say a year or two ago that you were trying to start  your own RC at garrett? Did you ever get that going? If so is it doing well and do you believe that it is bringing you success? I personally hope so, I think by doing so you will only make the sport of Indiana better.

 

As for going to tourneys in the off season, I don't go, I really have no reason to go. The only participation i have with wrestling anymore is as a fan ;-). Good luck at those tourneys though. How many garrett guys go to off season tourneys.

 

And finally good luck getting into that north central indiana tournament over the holidays, I think that could only help garrett.

 

Like i said, i really have no vendetta against you, or your team. But i guess you could say that I have a "vendetta" against your idea of class wrestling the individual state.

[MatChick76]

I guess David Taylor or the Steibers don't work hard in Ohio.  They sure act like they work hard.

 

If you get third place in our tournament you aren't the true third place finisher.  You could be ask low as the 6th best depending upon the draw.  You could also be the second best kid, but get third place.  The only "true" placing is first and that even is debated sometimes.

 

I'm sure those kids work hard, not saying they don't...and I do agree, with the draw, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, often times the "2nd Best" kid in the state ends up placing lower because he runs into the "#1 Kid" in the semis - BUT - how would a class system rectify this?  It wouldn't change this from happening...in fact...it seems to me that it would increase the likelihood that the "BEST" kids in the state could all end up somewhere other than the top of the podium while "Weaker" kids become Champions.

[Galagore]

I tried to read all 24 pages of posts, but after 30 minutes, and 9 pages, my head is pounding.  I am not for class wrestling.  I do not support class wrestling.  I like the one-class system which is, in my humble opinion, a true championship.  You can't change the Team Tourney without messing with the Individual Tourney - and having multiple champions for each weight class at the Individual Tourney, would just kill it all...the atmosphere, the work ethic, the undeniable knowldege of knowing YOU ARE THE BEST (not one of the 3 best...when you get 3rd place you know you're one of the top 3 in the state...but clearly...someone was better - just look to the top of the podium if you want to know who).

 

Keep Indiana Wrestling Class-less!

 

This is the argument I am most tired of.  Because someone is an Indiana state champion, they are THE best?  No way.  Even if every state was one-class, an Indiana champ would still only be one of 50 in the nation.  So how can our wrestlers live with themselves knowing there a minimum of what, 120 (?) other state champions at their weight?

[bigdanteague]

what are you talking about?  do you even know what you are talking about?

 

I never said baseball had a niche....

 

I think you just like to see yourself think and try to make points or valid arguments.....

 

Are you serious? You can't even remember what your own posts were.

 

I will recap:

 

You were making a case for winter sports being huge.  

 

You then contradict yourself by saying it was niche sport

 

Galagore stated that football, basketball and BASEBALL dominated ESPN coverage.

 

You try to argue that baseball doesnt belong with football and basketball.

 

I point out that BASEBALL had 80 million paying customers and is not an afterthought like winter sports are.

 

In conclusion: BASEBALL-still huge

 

                           Ice dancing and other quasi snow sports-niche sports

 

So what color is an orange?

 

 

 

 

[bigdanteague]

well in that case, then wrestling is a niche sport as well so what is the point of all this conversation......

 

Wrestling IS a niche sport.  This is a wrestling message board? Duh

 

pintowin is the one that brought the winter olympics into the conversation.

[Y2CJ41]

y2,

 

Before I go to the link I must say a few things

 

I have no vendetta against you or your team. You think because i disagree with you that i have a vendetta against you, I don't. I respect you, I repsect all wrestling schools. I just disgree with you.

When you say my kids are affected and that the team is adversely affected you affect me.  You have attacked the program to the fullest extent and I do NOT take that lightly.

 

I said in one post that I was glad to see Garrett wrestlers at state this year, although it may have happened before, i do not remember ever seeing a garrett wrestler at state. i believe from your post as well as the posts of others you work hard. And I was glad that it paid off for you and your wrestlers.

Seven of the last eight years we have had a state qualifier with 10 state qualifiers in the past eight years.  Sorry, but this year wasn't a rarity.

 

As for the excuse, well quite frankly you may never have told your kids to their faces that they are at a disdvantage, but if they ever came on thisboard (which i am guessing some do) you are indirectly giving them the excuse that they can't compete with the much larger schools.

Do you honestly have a clue what I would do to a kid if he came off the mat after a loss saying "well coach he was from a bigger school, what do you expect me to do?"  Do you honestly think I would say, "yep you're right bub, its alright."  You are right that is probably what I would say.... I just sit there and give up when coaching against a bigger school...that is how I handle things.  Sarcasm aside I would fly off the handle and that kid would get a butt chewing like no other.  

 

But in no way, do i have a "vendetta" against you. And quite frankly i resent the fact that you are projecting the fact that I have a vendetta against you on me.

Again, when you attack what I put numerous hours, money and effort into, you are attacking not only me, but everything I have worked for at Garrett.  Before 2003, Garrett had zero state qualifiers, zero, zilch, none, nadda.  In the six years I have been a full fledged member of the coaching staff we have won five conference championships and had seven state qualifiers(I coached two others for two years and worked out with the other one while in college some).  If I was adversely affecting the kids and their ability to beat bigger schools we would not have been 11-0 against schools with 900 students or more.  We beat teams like Huntington North, Carroll, Columbus East, and Bishop Dwenger.  Along with 2000+ student schools Northrop and Snider.  

 

I will say it one last time, if a kid EVER comes up to me after a loss and blames it on the size of the school the other kid goes to he will not have a pleasant conversation with me.  

[bigdanteague]

 

Like i said, i really have no vendetta against you, or your team. But i guess you could say that I have a "vendetta" against your idea of class wrestling the individual state.

 

Maybe you should start a crusade to get class wrestling out of the 40 plus other states that have been doing it for decades.

[pin2win1]

Umm, bigdanteague,

 

some of these winter sports might not be popular throughout all the US, but i guarantee you that in some areas of the US they are not niche sports and that these sports get plenty of attention in those areas and plenty of funding. Heck I would be willing to guess that despite the winter olmpics being national "niche" sports and only big sports in certain tiny areas like the north east, and the northwest (notice a sarcastic tone here), that they receive more funding, and that these regional areas have a larger population, than some of these other countries competeing in the olympics and beating us.

 

Fact is, if it were all about population and bank accounts, the US should still be winning these so called "niche" sports.

[MatChick76]

This is the argument I am most tired of.  Because someone is an Indiana state champion, they are THE best?  No way.  Even if every state was one-class, an Indiana champ would still only be one of 50 in the nation.  So how can our wrestlers live with themselves knowing there a minimum of what, 120 (?) other state champions at their weight?

 

They are labeled the BEST in INDIANA...I didn't say the were the BEST in the WORLD, or even in the good old USA.  Now you're grasping at straws.  I wish all of our former state champions would come out of the woodwork and let their feelings on class wrestling be known.  Even if you talk to kids who are in a classed state tourney, there are still those who wish it wasn't classed.  You are going to have some for it and some against it no matter what kind of system you have. I like our current one-class sytem (although tweeks are needed here and there...wrestlebacks...but that's another discussion)...but I bet the IHSAA doesn't ask me for my opinion, in the end, they'll decide - probably based totally on economics.

[Galagore]

wow

[Galagore]

I tried to read all 24 pages of posts, but after 30 minutes, and 9 pages, my head is pounding.  I am not for class wrestling.  I do not support class wrestling.  I like the one-class system which is, in my humble opinion, a true championship.  You can't change the Team Tourney without messing with the Individual Tourney - and having multiple champions for each weight class at the Individual Tourney, would just kill it all...the atmosphere, the work ethic, the undeniable knowldege of knowing YOU ARE THE BEST (not one of the 3 best...when you get 3rd place you know you're one of the top 3 in the state...but clearly...someone was better - just look to the top of the podium if you want to know who).

 

Keep Indiana Wrestling Class-less!

 

I highlighted the part where you talked about being the best for clarity.  They are all the same age, so why shouldn't they be compared to wrestlers from other states?  The best in the world or country is likely not a high-schooler.

[bigdanteague]

Umm, bigdanteague,

 

some of these winter sports might not be popular throughout all the US, but i guarantee you that in some areas of the US they are not niche sports and that these sports get plenty of attention in those areas and plenty of funding. Heck I would be willing to guess that despite the winter olmpics being national "niche" sports and only big sports in certain tiny areas like the north east, and the northwest (notice a sarcastic tone here), that they receive more funding, and that these regional areas have a larger population, than some of these other countries competeing in the olympics and beating us.

 

Fact is, if it were all about population and bank accounts, the US should still be winning these so called "niche" sports.

 

You have already proven to me that they are niche sports with your defense of their low TV ratings.

 

The USA won the most medals so they must have gotten something right,

[bigdanteague]

They are labeled the BEST in INDIANA...I didn't say the were the BEST in the WORLD, or even in the good old USA.  Now you're grasping at straws.  I wish all of our former state champions would come out of the woodwork and let their feelings on class wrestling be known.  Even if you talk to kids who are in a classed state tourney, there are still those who wish it wasn't classed.  You are going to have some for it and some against it no matter what kind of system you have. I like our current one-class sytem (although tweeks are needed here and there...wrestlebacks...but that's another discussion)...but I bet the IHSAA doesn't ask me for my opinion, in the end, they'll decide - probably based totally on economics.

 

Ryan Pribble - A state champ from one of the smallest schools in the state supports class wrestling.

 

[MatChick76]

I highlighted the part where you talked about being the best for clarity.  They are all the same age, so why shouldn't they be compared to wrestlers from other states?  The best in the world or country is likely not a high-schooler.

 

Sorry...I should have clarified that I was talking about our current Indiana class system and making changes to it.  I wasn't talking about any other system, and when I said the best, I meant in Indiana.  Also...although not always, I'm sure you will be quick to point out...these Indiana State Champions can go toe to toe with any other State's champions, so I'm fine with them being compared to other State's champions.  In fact...if the IHSAA would drop the "travel rules", we might get more opportunities to see our champions wrestle other state's champions.  Now that would be cool...and I think, a big boost to wrestling in the State of Indiana.

[bigdanteague]

Sorry...I should have clarified that I was talking about our current Indiana class system and making changes to it.  I wasn't talking about any other system, and when I said the best, I meant in Indiana.  Also...although not always, I'm sure you will be quick to point out...these Indiana State Champions can go toe to toe with any other State's champions, so I'm fine with them being compared to other State's champions.  In fact...if the IHSAA would drop the "travel rules", we might get more opportunities to see our champions wrestle other state's champions.  Now that would be cool...and I think, a big boost to wrestling in the State of Indiana.

 

How do the kids in those other state live with themselves?  Knowing they might not be the best yet still wearing the gold?  What kind of long term psychological damage are those athletic associations doing to these athletes?