Reasons for a class system for team state

[Y2CJ41]

 

Y2, your arguement would hold grounds if more students directly resulted in more athletes.

I can't go any further, this is one of the most idiotic statements I have ever read on this board.  Garrett has 275 boys, Mishawaka has 850, yet they have the same number of athletes?  Are you honestly serious about this?  I cannot comprehend how Mishawaka can field a competitive 5A football team with the same number of athletes in the school as a 2A school.  On top of that field an elite wrestling team with the same number of athletes as a 2A school.  WOW, Darrick Snyder is a great coach, but I never realized he was THAT great!

[Y2CJ41]

No your the one who can not comprehend the facts.  I do not care how many multisport atheletes Garrett has.  I proved by that study that it does not matter if you are a multisport athelete, because there are several multisport atheletes that were top notch kids.

 

Do you see what I am saying.  I am saying my study shows that multisport atheletes and wrestling success have no correlation. 

I see that you are saying that my facts don't line up with your so you disregard them.

[outsidersview]

Stupid idea, class wrestling is stupid, I only care about a true champion.

Look man, you say this but then complain about how you don't have it fair at Garrett.

You have 850 boys in the school, you have a lot of athletes to choose from.  Garrett has 550 TOTAL students.  Trust me you have a lot more athletes to choose from.  Obviously numbers do not make sense to you, so I will try to make this as simple as possible, more students mean more athletes to choose from.  Mishawaka has many sectional titles in other sports just from perusing the IHSAA site.  The other sports might not be at the elite level like the wrestling team, but they still have good teams in other sports. 

You still don't get the bigger picture.  I will try putting it this way.

Zac McCray- all-state wrestler, good athlete

Geoff Getts- all-state discuss, good athlete

 

As a wrestling coach if I tell Zac, he shouldn't play football to concentrate on wrestling he might do that, so now our football team loses a two-way starter and all-conference linebacker.  They are in trouble without him on the field. 

 

If the track coach goes to Geoff, hey don't wrestle or play football to help your chances of going DI in track, we lose a two-way and all-state lineman in football and a 20+ match winner in wrestling.  Now the wrestling team goes from being 23-5 on the year to being 18-10 or worse.  One kid makes that much difference to a team at a small school.  Add to that the football team suffers greatly on the line without a 260lbs all-state guard now.

 

Trust me, both those athletes want to succeed beyond belief, they are two EXTREMELY hard workers and very coachable.  These two could definitely be better at their favorite sport if they did not participate in the other two sports, but they realize they are NEEDED on these other teams.  They aren't wanted, they are NEEDED for the success of those teams.  At Mishawaka, Zac isn't needed for the football team because a 170lbs, 5'6" linebacker isn't going to do much.  Geoff won't be needed on the wrestling team because they will have a wrestler who has wrestled since middle school or earlier.  That is the difference, these athletes are NEEDED for the other teams to be even close to competitive.  There is no other way to put it, it is two different worlds and Mishawaka and Garrett.  It is a night and day comparison when comparing the team and INDIVIDUAL.

Should I go on about the multi sport athletes that have gone through MD as state champions in Multi sports? The list is crazy and if you would like for me to pull their names up I will be more than glad.

 

[pin2win1]

No Y2, all i was stating is that if School A has 200 students and 100 athletes, that it does not mean that school B who has 400 students will have 200 athletes that is all I was stating. I never said Garrett has more athletes than Mishawaka. But I doubt that Mishawaka had 350 male athletes when i was in school.... 300 might be a stretch. But according to what I am getting from you is that if Garrett has half of their boys play sports, then Mishawaka must have half of their boys play sports.

 

I respect you Y2. I disagree with you, but i respect you. But quite frankly all your whinning about class wrestling gets old and you are beginng to act like a certain farm animal in your posts. Like Duck an Run said earlier, if you are going to whine and complain about the size of the school in public then you are giving your kids and excuse to fail against larger schools. You are essentially telling them that they lost before they go out there. And with a coach like that, well the school will never compete with large schools, and if I had a child and he was being coached by someone like that, well I'd strongly suggest he move to another sport where the coach believes he can compete well, no matter what the situation.

 

Just out of curiosity, should the olympics be classed as well? I mean it is unfair for some of these tiny nations to compete with China and the US, there is no way they could win... Oh wait, Canada just got more Gold medals than the US and defeated us in hockey, all this despite being the size of California as opposed to the entire United states.

[outsidersview]

No Y2, all i was stating is that if School A has 200 students and 100 athletes, that it does not mean that school B who has 400 students will have 200 athletes that is all I was stating. I never said Garrett has more athletes than Mishawaka. But I doubt that Mishawaka had 350 male athletes when i was in school.... 300 might be a stretch. But according to what I am getting from you is that if Garrett has half of their boys play sports, then Mishawaka must have half of their boys play sports.

 

I respect you Y2. I disagree with you, but i respect you. But quite frankly all your whinning about class wrestling gets old and you are beginng to act like a certain farm animal in your posts. Like Duck an Run said earlier, if you are going to whine and complain about the size of the school in public then you are giving your kids and excuse to fail against larger schools. You are essentially telling them that they lost before they go out there. And with a coach like that, well the school will never compete with large schools, and if I had a child and he was being coached by someone like that, well I'd strongly suggest he move to another sport where the coach believes he can compete well, no matter what the situation.

 

Just out of curiosity, should the olympics be classed as well? I mean it is unfair for some of these tiny nations to compete with China and the US, there is no way they could win... Oh wait, Canada just got more Gold medals than the US and defeated us in hockey, all this despite being the size of California as opposed to the entire United states.

wahoo wahoo wahoo.

[Merlyn]

You guys need to look at this in terms of what is best for the kids, not what is best for fans who like to watch the state tournament.  I honestly don't know where I fall, but I just feel like some of the anti-class wrestling advocates come from a perspective of what they like to see as a fan, whereas some of the pro-class wrestling advocates seem to be coming from a perspective of what they feel is the best for the kids.  Like I said, I truly am not taking a stance on this, but if I did have one it would be because I took the time to really think and research which format is the best for the kids, not which format I, as a fan, most enjoy watching in January and February.  This is high school sports and whatever is best for the kids should be done. 

[bigdanteague]

The class system has all but destroyed the once unique and great Indiana High School Basketball phenomenon.

 

Not at small schools.  Basketball has never been so popular at places like Triton, Austin, Oregon Davis, Boone Grove, Blackhawk Christain, Heritage Christian, Vincennes Rivet, Waldron.....

[bigdanteague]

No your the one who can not comprehend the facts.  I do not care how many multisport atheletes Garrett has.  I proved by that study that it does not matter if you are a multisport athelete, because there are several multisport atheletes that were top notch kids.

 

Do you see what I am saying.  I am saying my study shows that multisport atheletes and wrestling success have no correlation.  

 

Your study...ha.  You compiled a list.  You calling it a study invalidates you.

[KarlHungus]

 

Fact is, Mishawaka also can not afford to tell its wrestlers that you can't play other sports. Where would Mishawaka have been in football this year if they would have told Christian Lentz, or Travis Thomas, or Tyler Reihnoel not to play football. My guess is Penn would have won atleast one of the two meetings and definately the sectional match up. So yeah, even in the large schools the best athletes are NEEDED to play multiple sports for success in them. Not wanted, but NEEDED.

 

 

The difference is at a school like Garrett, Danny Abu. Dick Morin, Al White, Ryan Stahl would also be major factors on the football field.  Heck, Layton Binion would probably start at DB.  All of these along with Lentz, Thomas and Reinohl would be needed to field competitive spring sports teams as well.  When they are competing in spring sports and three sports, they seriously reduce the amount of off season wrestling they can do.  This is one of the main differences between big schools and small schools and no doubt one of the main reasons a vast majority of states have class sports based on enrollment.

[KarlHungus]

 

I respect you Y2. I disagree with you, but i respect you. But quite frankly all your whinning about class wrestling gets old and you are beginng to act like a certain farm animal in your posts. Like Duck an Run said earlier, if you are going to whine and complain about the size of the school in public then you are giving your kids and excuse to fail against larger schools. You are essentially telling them that they lost before they go out there. And with a coach like that, well the school will never compete with large schools, and if I had a child and he was being coached by someone like that, well I'd strongly suggest he move to another sport where the coach believes he can compete well, no matter what the situation.

 

 

Your calling this whining and complaining reduces you to a near duck and run level.  No one in North East Indiana puts as much effort into the training a preparation of his wrestlers and wrestlers of the surrounding area than Y2.  To label his call for a system that puts wrestlers on equal footing with other athletes at his school and other wresters around the country as whining and complaining is a joke.

[KarlHungus]

You guys need to look at this in terms of what is best for the kids, not what is best for fans who like to watch the state tournament.  I honestly don't know where I fall, but I just feel like some of the anti-class wrestling advocates come from a perspective of what they like to see as a fan, whereas some of the pro-class wrestling advocates seem to be coming from a perspective of what they feel is the best for the kids.  Like I said, I truly am not taking a stance on this, but if I did have one it would be because I took the time to really think and research which format is the best for the kids, not which format I, as a fan, most enjoy watching in January and February.  This is high school sports and whatever is best for the kids should be done. 

 

Very good post.  The reasons given for class wrestling have always been about what is best for kids and best for the health of the sport of wrestling.

[KarlHungus]

 

Just out of curiosity, should the olympics be classed as well? I mean it is unfair for some of these tiny nations to compete with China and the US, there is no way they could win... Oh wait, Canada just got more Gold medals than the US and defeated us in hockey, all this despite being the size of California as opposed to the entire United states.

 

Should the NCAA be classed?  Why can't Manchester compete vs. Iowa?  Should Warren Central compete with Turkey Run in football?  If your argument against classes is consistant, your answer should be yes to all three questions.

 

The Olympics are the one exception to not classing I would agree to.  Canada was favored to win in hockey.  They have better hockey players. 

[duck_and_run]

Karl I at least somewhat respect your post on class wrestling they are more thought out then Y2.  That being said all men are created equal.  At some point in their wrestling careers they are falling behind and I would say it always comes back to coaching.  Good coaches win no matter where they are at.  You could take a top level coach put them at Garrett and have a team competiting for state titles in 5 years.  Thats no offense to the Garrett coaching staff, but thats just how it is.  I have seen several elete coaches move from one team to another and change those programs arround. Barry Humble is a perfect example.  He took 1A Adam Central and made teams ranked top five in the state for a long time.  He change the culture of Adam Central and the results followed.  Adam Central has lost a little bit of its luster, but they still have a sound program because of all the leg work Mr. Humble did.  Y2 said that his  high school wrestlers didn't compete in elementry school(or at least many of them).  To me that says you did not work hard enough at the young ages to benifit later on in wrestling.  Matre Dei isn't great because they are rich they are great because Evansville has one of the finest youth programs in the state.  Look at any good program in the state and they have good youth involvement.

[Hpw]

i dont think indiana should class the team state because if its classed then you truley do not know who is the best team

[AJ]

I am sorry that I mention personal experiences that I have seen firsthand.  I guess I can just go off of hearsay and made up information like you and AJ.

 

Not sure why my name was dropped like this, but please tell or show me where I have used "made up" information or "hearsay".

 

[pin2win1]

Your calling this whining and complaining reduces you to a near duck and run level.  No one in North East Indiana puts as much effort into the training a preparation of his wrestlers and wrestlers of the surrounding area than Y2.  To label his call for a system that puts wrestlers on equal footing with other athletes at his school and other wresters around the country as whining and complaining is a joke.

 

karl, atleast 2 or 3 years of Y2's rants and raves about how unfair this system is = whinning. Fact is y2 may never complain about being a small school to the face of his kids, but I am sure some of his kids get on here (unless he bans them) and sees his constant ranting about how unfair the system is. What does that do for the kids? I sure the heck does not "prepare" them to compete against the larger schools, all it does it is give his students a reason to say they couldn't win because x school had more athletes than them. Maybe if y2 spent less time ranting and looking at how many athletes who won state played this many sports, or how much less money that his school got than this other school over there or any other host of excuses, maybe he could spend that extra time figuring out how he could make garrett a little more competitive. Maybe he could figure out a way to make the garrett kids believe they could beat a school of 2000 rather than tell them that there is not way his school could compete with the big boys via the message board.

 

[KarlHungus]

Karl I at least somewhat respect your post on class wrestling they are more thought out then Y2.  That being said all men are created equal.  At some point in their wrestling careers they are falling behind and I would say it always comes back to coaching.  Good coaches win no matter where they are at.  You could take a top level coach put them at Garrett and have a team competiting for state titles in 5 years.  Thats no offense to the Garrett coaching staff, but thats just how it is.  I have seen several elete coaches move from one team to another and change those programs arround. Barry Humble is a perfect example.  He took 1A Adam Central and made teams ranked top five in the state for a long time.  He change the culture of Adam Central and the results followed.  Adam Central has lost a little bit of its luster, but they still have a sound program because of all the leg work Mr. Humble did.  Y2 said that his  high school wrestlers didn't compete in elementry school(or at least many of them).  To me that says you did not work hard enough at the young ages to benifit later on in wrestling.  Matre Dei isn't great because they are rich they are great because Evansville has one of the finest youth programs in the state.  Look at any good program in the state and they have good youth involvement.

 

If it was only about coaching then Barry Humble should have multiple state championships at Fort Wayne South and New Haven.  New Haven is about the same quality program now as they always have been.

 

I would like to see your proof that AC was top 5 team in the state "for a long time".

 

Garrett has a youth program now.  Y2 started it.  The kids in high school now were not in a youth program because there was none.  You somehow can't grasp that because you have some personal vendetta that clouds your comprehension skills.  But yet you have the gall to say he is not working hard enough.  You don't have a clue as to the amount of work he does but you don't hesitate to call him a poor coach who doesn't work hard enough. 

[pin2win1]

The difference is at a school like Garrett, Danny Abu. Dick Morin, Al White, Ryan Stahl would also be major factors on the football field.  Heck, Layton Binion would probably start at DB.  All of these along with Lentz, Thomas and Reinohl would be needed to field competitive spring sports teams as well.  When they are competing in spring sports and three sports, they seriously reduce the amount of off season wrestling they can do.  This is one of the main differences between big schools and small schools and no doubt one of the main reasons a vast majority of states have class sports based on enrollment.

 

I believe Abu did play football... was he a major factor, i am not sure. I was only at 2 football games so he may have been. Ryan Stahl, well i wonder if he played football at a Memorial, i think his brother was a multi sport athlete over there. But i wouldn't use him as an example seeing as he did just move into the mishawaka system. It's not like he had ever played for coach Bart, and the offensive system that mishawaka uses is quite a unique system where he may not have even played much if he was an offensive guy.

 

Now, i don't think white or Morin played football, but I am not sure if they play other sports at all.

 

But I can say this, I do believe that when I went to mishawaka, our 119 pounder was a football player.  :-X

[KarlHungus]

karl, atleast 2 or 3 years of Y2's rants and raves about how unfair this system is = whinning. Fact is y2 may never complain about being a small school to the face of his kids, but I am sure some of his kids get on here (unless he bans them) and sees his constant ranting about how unfair the system is. What does that do for the kids? I sure the heck does not "prepare" them to compete against the larger schools, all it does it is give his students a reason to say they couldn't win because x school had more athletes than them. Maybe if y2 spent less time ranting and looking at how many athletes who won state played this many sports, or how much less money that his school got than this other school over there or any other host of excuses, maybe he could spend that extra time figuring out how he could make garrett a little more competitive. Maybe he could figure out a way to make the garrett kids believe they could beat a school of 2000 rather than tell them that there is not way his school could compete with the big boys via the message board.

 

 

How many class wrestling topics have been started by y2 in the past 2 years?

 

Just because he defends his posistion that you don't agree with, you call it whining.  If you don't like it you don't have to read it.  His team beat all schools with enrollments over 900 this year.  Garrett is doing fine.  Who are you to question how he coaches his kids or program?  Do you have any idea as to the amount of time he puts in for Garrett kids and others in NE indiana? 

 

Many Garrett kids travel to best open rooms in the state, go to national tournaments, and get great camp experiences.  They know what its like to compete against the best.  For you to suggest that he is hurting his kids just tells me how you have given up trying to defend a one class system and veered into Duck and Run territory of personal attacks.

 

 

[pin2win1]

Should the NCAA be classed?  Why can't Manchester compete vs. Iowa?  Should Warren Central compete with Turkey Run in football?  If your argument against classes is consistant, your answer should be yes to all three questions.

 

The Olympics are the one exception to not classing I would agree to.  Canada was favored to win in hockey.  They have better hockey players.

 

Actually the NCAA is classed, but using a whole different method. Schools are no classed so much because of their size, and rightfully so do to the fact that a school of 1000 men could easily have 700 athletes if they wanted because they can recruit and accept 700 athletes if they wish, where as a school of 8,000 could limit themselves to 500 athletes if they wished. Rather i do believe the NCAA is classed mainly on 2 things, first the money that the schools wish to put into the programs, and 2 the time the univeristy allows their athletes to spend on their sport per week.

 

As for hockey, they way y2 puts it, the bigger the pool, the better the athletes, and the better the team. Therefore, the US has about 10 times as many people as Canada, therefore under y2's thinking, for every elite hockey players, the US should have 10 as equally good. If this were the case, there is no way Canada should have been able to beat us in hockey. And certainly no way they should have won more golds than us throughout the games. I mean they won 5 more gold medals than us. But if it were all about the size of the country we should have easily won 10 more golds than them, heck they probablly should not have had a chance to win 1 gold, we should have won them all. Well actually China should have.

[KarlHungus]

 

 

Actually the NCAA is classed, but using a whole different method. Schools are no classed so much because of their size, and rightfully so do to the fact that a school of 1000 men could easily have 700 athletes if they wanted because they can recruit and accept 700 athletes if they wish, where as a school of 8,000 could limit themselves to 500 athletes if they wished. Rather i do believe the NCAA is classed mainly on 2 things, first the money that the schools wish to put into the programs, and 2 the time the univeristy allows their athletes to spend on their sport per week.

 

 

So the number of athletes a college has access to and the amount of money they spend on their athletics determines whether they are classed or not?  Wow?!?!  What a crazy idea?

[base]

There are many small schools with youth programs, we had one at Garrett when I was in high school and it did nothing for our high school program.  There is only so much orange juice you can get out of an orange.  

I'm not sure I completely understand what you mean by this statement Y2.  You see, I believe that a strong youth feeder program will do far more for a high school's success than classing would do.

 

I believe that if you were to take this year's Indiana state wrestling championship participants and go back through their history, you would find that BY FAR the majority of them have been wrestling for a long time, and most had a lot of success as a youngster.

 

I don't know if Garrett currently has a youth program or not, or if you encourage local kids to attend youth wrestling clinics elsewhere/do weekend tourneys/etc.  *IF* I were a high school coach, my number one priority would be to try to establish a complete feeder system (beginner youth/experienced youth/junior high) where there is an influential coach at every level, and we would set common priorities and goals, so that as the wrestlers moved along, their experience would build on prior years.  I would have fun events planned throughout the year/offseason with the youth group so they could bond as teammates and thereby encourage each other to stay active.

 

I'm just completely guessing that this is what has happened with Union County, Indian Creek, and some of the other small schools that are turning out one good wrestler after another.  If you are waiting until they get to high school to recruit wrestlers and teach them techniques, you are going to be playing catch-up forever.

[pin2win1]

How many class wrestling topics have been started by y2 in the past 2 years?

 

Just because he defends his posistion that you don't agree with, you call it whining.  If you don't like it you don't have to read it.  His team beat all schools with enrollments over 900 this year.  Garrett is doing fine.  Who are you to question how he coaches his kids or program?  Do you have any idea as to the amount of time he puts in for Garrett kids and others in NE indiana?  

 

Many Garrett kids travel to best open rooms in the state, go to national tournaments, and get great camp experiences.  They know what its like to compete against the best.  For you to suggest that he is hurting his kids just tells me how you have given up trying to defend a one class system and veered into Duck and Run territory of personal attacks.

 

Karl, y2 may work his butt off... i am not disputing that. But I know that as a Mishawaka guy, none of my coaches ever, ever told us. "It is impossible to compete with Penn." they told us the opposite. This despite the fact that Penn is easly twice our size year in and year it, this despite the fact that penn gets more funding than Mishawaka year in and year out, and this despite the fact that many of the Penn kids had moms and dads that made more money than our moms and dads so that their kids could go to the best sports camps. Now, had they told us this I am sure that we would have not tried as hard to beat them because we would have had our excuse as to why we couldn't beat them, but they didn't.

 

As for the whining, it is because is is a coach, not because he disagrees with me. fact is it gets old to hear a coach complain about how unfair the system is, and making excuses as to why his team can't win state, when he should be telling his kids that they can in fact be successful.

 

that being said, I have not been to state for years. But i saw that a couple Garrett wrestlers were there this year. i don't remember the last time garrett had wrestlers as state, but I know that I was glad that they had some there this year. Not because it would possibly invalidate y2's arguments, but rather because either last year or the year before  Y2 stated how he was trying to improve his program, and i was glad that some of that hard work was paying off.

 

[KarlHungus]

 

As for hockey, they way y2 puts it, the bigger the pool, the better the athletes, and the better the team. Therefore, the US has about 10 times as many people as Canada, therefore under y2's thinking, for every elite hockey players, the US should have 10 as equally good. If this were the case, there is no way Canada should have been able to beat us in hockey. And certainly no way they should have won more golds than us throughout the games. I mean they won 5 more gold medals than us. But if it were all about the size of the country we should have easily won 10 more golds than them, heck they probablly should not have had a chance to win 1 gold, we should have won them all. Well actually China should have.

 

If hockey or all winter sports were as important in the US as they are in Canada I would agree with the analogy.  Even though winter sports are an afterthought in the US, we still led the entire medal count.

[pin2win1]

So the number of athletes a college has access to and the amount of money they spend on their athletics determines whether they are classed or not?  Wow?!?!  What a crazy idea?

 

 

I said that the NCAA is not classed so much by its enrollment, but rather more about the money the university puts into its programs and time the school wishes to allow their kids to participate in such activities.

 

Smalled division 1 school: Cenentary College, 994 total undergrad/grad students

Largest Division 1 School: I believe is Ohio State, over 51,000 undergrad/grad students.

 

Yep not so much based off of the enrollment, sorry.