IMAWRESTLER Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Would it make the class people happy to have a large-small class team championship, but keep the individual tourney one class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMAWRESTLER Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 For every Cody Phillips there are three Zac Stevens'. And Cody beats all three! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Times are a changing why are the Bellmont,Yorktown,Peru,Garret,Whitco, and all the other small school teams producing quality teams? Because training has changed in Indiana, you had your kids and yourself in the Mishawaka room this summer. Expose your kids to great wrestlers and they will get better its not numbers its training. Bellmont and Yorktown are big schools in terms of being in the upper half of enrollment of wrestling schools in Indiana. Peru is on the bubble of being a small school, as is Yorktown in the opposite direction. Even the past year the same 3 to 1 ratio was in full effect, nothing has changed, just the school associated with the small schools that have state qualifiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 And Cody beats all three! And for ever Cody Phillps, there is a Paul Beck, Jason Tsirtsis and Eric Roach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMAWRESTLER Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Would it make the class people happy to have a large-small class team championship, but keep the individual tourney one class? Well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 For every Cody Phillips there are three Zac Stevens'. That's fine. My point is that it's just more likely that a talented individual will attend a big school (based on probability), but the big school isn't causing the individual to be more talented. Do you agree that probability would predict that approximately 75% of the state quality talent would be in big schools? If so, why would you expect less than 75% of the state qualifiers to be from big schools? While the big schools and the small schools have the same number of roster slots, if you accept the foregoing, we've already established that big schools start with more talent. And the statistics match up with what the probability predicts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 And for ever Cody Phillps, there is a Paul Beck, Jason Tsirtsis and Eric Roach. My point is that the size of the school doesn't make the individual wrestler. Do you think Jason Tsirtsis going to Crown Point instead of Garrett has caused him to be 3x as likely to be a state qualifier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Well? Half Happy I would guess. Individual to them means more winners, which means more notoriety, which then means more kids interested. Class team division doesn't translate to enough of that happening by itself from what Y2 seems to always tell me. My thought was the class team event would takecare of a large part of that and you could keep the individual event non-class until the wrestling population growth reaches a point where one tournament couldn't handle the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 That's fine. My point is that it's just more likely that a talented individual will attend a big school (based on probability), but the big school isn't causing the individual to be more talented. Do you agree that probability would predict that approximately 75% of the state quality talent would be in big schools? If so, why would you expect less than 75% of the state qualifiers to be from big schools? While the big schools and the small schools have the same number of roster slots, if you accept the foregoing, we've already established that big schools start with more talent. And the statistics match up with what the probability predicts. So because they have more talent the small schools should just suffer and tell them "life isn't fair." Great idea, I love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Well? A true classed system in my mine would be the best, but a team classed state would be a step in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMAWRESTLER Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Half Happy I would guess. Individual to them means more winners, which means more notoriety, which then means more kids interested. Class team division doesn't translate to enough of that happening by itself from what Y2 seems to always tell me. My thought was the class team event would takecare of a large part of that and you could keep the individual event non-class until the wrestling population growth reaches a point where one tournament couldn't handle the numbers. Then this is we should all be pushing for a compromise, and not waste time fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 So because they have more talent the small schools should just suffer and tell them "life isn't fair." Great idea, I love it! My argument is that there is no unfairness on the individual level - or if there is the statistics you are using don't support it. Based on the statistics you have compiled, going to a big school doesn't cause one to be more likely to be a state qualifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 My argument is that there is no unfairness on the individual level - or if there is the statistics you are using don't support it. Based on the statistics you have compiled, going to a big school doesn't cause one to be more likely to be a state qualifier. Yes it does, going to a big school increases your chances of being a state qualifier if you are a starter by three times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Yes it does, going to a big school increases your chances of being a state qualifier if you are a starter by three times. If you took 1000 people and put 800 into Group A and 200 into Group B and had each group put their 50 best individuals into a 100 meter dash, would you be surprised if the top ten consisted of 8 from group A and 2 from Group B? Would you argue that being in Group A caused each individual in Group A to be 4x as likely to be faster than each individual in Group B? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 If you took 1000 people and put 800 into Group A and 200 into Group B and had each group put their 50 best individuals into a 100 meter dash, would you be surprised if the top ten consisted of 8 from group A and 2 from Group B? Would you argue that being in Group A caused each individual in Group A to be 4x as likely to be faster than each individual in Group B? It is not a level playing field for Group B to be as successful as Group A. If Group A were competing against a group of 300, it would be a lot more equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 It is not a level playing field for Group B to be as successful as Group A. If Group A were competing against a group of 300, it would be a lot more equal. But if we're talking about individual success, why does it matter if Group B as a group is as successful as Group A? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 It is not a level playing field for Group B to be as successful as Group A. If Group A were competing against a group of 300, it would be a lot more equal. I swear for some of these arguments I need pictures and a flow chart to figure it all out. It almost seems like your saying that its not just to unfair for these big school individuals to be competing against so many people and class would help them and their schools success out if they had less competition too. Get class for the sake of big school who at this point have way to many people to compete against to really let enough individuals shine. If so I'd keep going with that argument and you may get more big school people to start going to your side of things. Again I need pictures and flow charts for some of this to even work anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I dont know why we are arguing this. You small guys just need to work harder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 But if we're talking about individual success, why does it matter if Group B as a group is as successful as Group A? And it doesn't, unless the class pros want it to matter. Again, the rhetoric for class is all referenced to the other H.S. sports in the state. Sorry to say this is not a sound basis for the spot of wrestling. Apples to oranges. Again the coaches are the only ones here that beat the class drum. The parents, fans , and most of all kids don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 How about we focus on proven methods to help out the states productivity. Y2 if you want to make the state better lets look at areas like Fort Wayne and help start feeder programs and RTC's. How would classing wrestling make any change for a schools like Northside, Harding, Snider, Bishop Luers, Wayne, Concordia and the list continues? The truth is it doesn't do anything positive for weaker teams. If we want to get the state going on the right path we need to focus on these areas. It truly is a shame that most Fort Wayne big schools do not field a full roster, but I guess we can go try and win you a title before we look at the real problems. You are out for your own personal gain and your post show it. Which I do not mind just be honest about it. So if you admit you do not care about anything but the team you help out with I would have a ton more respect for you Y2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 How about we focus on proven methods to help out the states productivity. Y2 if you want to make the state better lets look at areas like Fort Wayne and help start feeder programs and RTC's. How would classing wrestling make any change for a schools like Northside, Harding, Snider, Bishop Luers, Wayne, Concordia and the list continues? The truth is it doesn't do anything positive for weaker teams. If we want to get the state going on the right path we need to focus on these areas. It truly is a shame that most Fort Wayne big schools do not field a full roster, but I guess we can go try and win you a title before we look at the real problems. You are out for your own personal gain and your post show it. Which I do not mind just be honest about it. So if you admit you do not care about anything but the team you help out with I would have a ton more respect for you Y2. Harding isn't a big school, they are a very small 3A school, which was 2A just last year. Secondly, I would not have gained anything as a coach as we would not have won sectional this year or last and might have had one or two sectional championships in the past 10 years at most. What would that have done for me as an assistant coach? Tell me please what that would have done for me? Would it have gotten me more money, would I be able to puff my chest out more or something? By the way I have started an RTC that has been running the past three years. Sorry, but I can't make the North Side, Concordia, Snider, etc kids come to the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Man I can't wait to puff my chest out on day. Once you figure out what is needed in the program to make that actually happen as an assistant please share it. By the way I can say that Y2s RTC does have some nice clinicians that stop in every year. I wish we had a close RTC that had that kind of special guest coaching every so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 Y2 I was not trying to say that big schools need help in Fort Wayne. I know how big harding is I also threw Luers in the discussion. It is not a matter of size it is a matter of resources without proper resources like a middle school program or RTC's it is flat out unfair. In fact I would say it is much more unfair then the size of the school. After all a 2 A school beat the SAC champions this weekend. SO what I am saying is if you truly want to help the sport why don't we focus on areas of the state that need the resources like Fort Wayne, Layfette, or Terra Haute. That would do more for the state then just developing another class of dominance. Also let me ask this you beat Carroll this weekend at the sectional right. Is it unfair for them to be in your sectional this year? Or is that only when you loose to them that it becomes unfair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Y2 I was not trying to say that big schools need help in Fort Wayne. I know how big harding is I also threw Luers in the discussion. It is not a matter of size it is a matter of resources without proper resources like a middle school program or RTC's it is flat out unfair. In fact I would say it is much more unfair then the size of the school. After all a 2 A school beat the SAC champions this weekend. SO what I am saying is if you truly want to help the sport why don't we focus on areas of the state that need the resources like Fort Wayne, Layfette, or Terra Haute. That would do more for the state then just developing another class of dominance. Also let me ask this you beat Carroll this weekend at the sectional right. Is it unfair for them to be in your sectional this year? Or is that only when you loose to them that it becomes unfair? It is funny how you want to point out one year where Garrett defeats Carroll, but forget about the 25+ years where Garrett was never even close to beating them. Only within the past 5 years has Garrett been competitive with Carroll. Carroll still owns the career series with Garrett only beating them three times in their history. Sorry, but one year doesn't mean much, of course you will hang your hat on one year that is above the norm and stick to it like a fly on a flystrip. It goes to show how much you really know when there is an RTC at Purdue. Sorry, but RTC's only make a difference in the elite kids that come there. I have done an RTC for three years and guess what, I have had very few kids from the SAC. Even a couple years ago with the NEWAGE club right at Snider High School, there were very few SAC kids there. Your magic formula with RTCs do not do much good when the kids don't use them. There have been resources in the area, but yet they have not worked very well if at all to improve wrestling in the SAC. If there was class wrestling the big schools would see an increase of 25% in their number of state qualifiers in a two class system. More success or opportunities of success will generate more interest in the sport in the areas that are not doing so well. If 25% more SAC kids go to state, then that will help generate interest in the sport at those schools. That will also mean more kids get closer to a state berth which would do the same. More interest would mean more kids seek out the training opportunities such as camps, RTC's, and clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 P.S. You have still failed to tell me what I would benefit from personally from a classed system. I already asked out AD to take the ACAC trophy home and put it on my fireplace, but he said no. Maybe if we win a sectional, he will let me have that trophy. Or maybe I could get one of my wrestler's ribbons or medals from state, they are all nice kids and would give their coach their awards I am sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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