KarlHungus Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Many many people work hard, very hard and still loose, that is life. I just don't believe that everyone that works hard can finish number one. Everyone that works hard should have the opportunity to succeed, but everyone can't win. At the individual state final.........does a wrestler that finishes 2nd or 5th or 8th not enjoy success? I believe they do. I believe that they are proud, or they should be. I guess I am just a strong believer that there is only one winner. I would hate to win in class 2A, and go thru life wondering if I was really better than the 4A guy or not. You would hate to win a state title? Probably ruined the lives of all those class sport champs. Not a very logical argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 You would hate to win a state title? Probably ruined the lives of all those class sport champs. Not a very logical argument. [sarcasm]I know last year when they honored the 1974 State Champions at Garrett they all looked ashamed of their accomplishment. It was horrible, I thought I was at a funeral. [/sarcasm] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdanteague Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Small school sissy boys aint got a clue brotha! Keep up the Lord's work Disco, Duck and Slick. Sounds like my ex-wives lawyer firm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 You would hate to win a state title? Probably ruined the lives of all those class sport champs. Not a very logical argument. You are taking my quote as a partial. I would hate to win and have to wonder for the rest of my life if I was really the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 You are taking my quote as a partial. I would hate to win and have to wonder for the rest of my life if I was really the best. Have you ever talked to a kid from a small school championship team? Have you ever talked to a Jimtown or Sheridan person and asked them if they couldn't sleep at night 20 years later wondering if they were the best in the state in football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 You are taking my quote as a partial. I would hate to win and have to wonder for the rest of my life if I was really the best. No I didn't. You said you would hate to win a state championship in a classed sport because you would wonder the rest of you life if you were better than a bigger school. My response associated your comment about hating to win a state title with the absurdity of how it would affect the rest of their lives. You seem to think it would have some negative affect on the rest of their lives. I think that is a silly statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer24141 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Another problem with classing is college recruiting. If coaches from say Purdue, Indiana, Central Michigan, Michigan State, etc. come to watch the state tournament they won't give equal opportunity to alot of kids. Of course all the state champions will get there share of attention from these programs, but I am talking about the guy that takes third in say Division III (this being the theoretical smallest division). Do you think Tom Ryan or Scott Hinkle will look at him more of less then the guy who takes third in the "big school" division? Since there is no head to head between these wrestlers at the state level this can create a problem. I think that class wrestling for team is a great idea, I'm just not sure how you do this without classing individual and taking scholarship opportunities away from some athletes. All things being equal (grades, temperment, weight class and so on) would you be more inclined to look at the big school wrestler or at the small school wrestler? Mishawaka with their rich tradition, or Muncie Southside? Don't destroy me on this Y2 and Karl, just bringing up another point that I am sure you have a well thought out and logical discussion for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Another problem with classing is college recruiting. If coaches from say Purdue, Indiana, Central Michigan, Michigan State, etc. come to watch the state tournament they won't give equal opportunity to alot of kids. Of course all the state champions will get there share of attention from these programs, but I am talking about the guy that takes third in say Division III (this being the theoretical smallest division). Do you think Tom Ryan or Scott Hinkle will look at him more of less then the guy who takes third in the "big school" division? Since there is no head to head between these wrestlers at the state level this can create a problem. I think that class wrestling for team is a great idea, I'm just not sure how you do this without classing individual and taking scholarship opportunities away from some athletes. All things being equal (grades, temperment, weight class and so on) would you be more inclined to look at the big school wrestler or at the small school wrestler? Mishawaka with their rich tradition, or Muncie Southside? Don't destroy me on this Y2 and Karl, just bringing up another point that I am sure you have a well thought out and logical discussion for. We have discussed this in the past. The type of kid that Division one programs recruit already have plenty of head to head competition in spring and summer wrestling. Classing would expose more kids to the Division two and three coaches allowing more kids to wrestle in college. Those kids would than be more likely to come back and coach at some level. Overall quality of coaching would be increased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Another problem with classing is college recruiting. If coaches from say Purdue, Indiana, Central Michigan, Michigan State, etc. come to watch the state tournament they won't give equal opportunity to alot of kids. Of course all the state champions will get there share of attention from these programs, but I am talking about the guy that takes third in say Division III (this being the theoretical smallest division). Do you think Tom Ryan or Scott Hinkle will look at him more of less then the guy who takes third in the "big school" division? Since there is no head to head between these wrestlers at the state level this can create a problem. I think that class wrestling for team is a great idea, I'm just not sure how you do this without classing individual and taking scholarship opportunities away from some athletes. All things being equal (grades, temperment, weight class and so on) would you be more inclined to look at the big school wrestler or at the small school wrestler? Mishawaka with their rich tradition, or Muncie Southside? Don't destroy me on this Y2 and Karl, just bringing up another point that I am sure you have a well thought out and logical discussion for. Was Andrew Howe a top recruit because of his three Indiana state titles or his performance at the national level? Dylan Ness from Minnesota has yet to win a (classed) state championship there, but is a top recruit because of his double championship at Fargo in 2008 amongst other national placings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenadier2012 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 We have discussed this in the past. The type of kid that Division one programs recruit already have plenty of head to head competition in spring and summer wrestling. Classing would expose more kids to the Division two and three coaches allowing more kids to wrestle in college. Those kids would than be more likely to come back and coach at some level. Overall quality of coaching would be increased. A completely theoretical statement; In a lot of cases being a great wrestler does not translate to being a great coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 A completely theoretical statement; In a lot of cases being a great wrestler does not translate to being a great coach. No it doesn't, but you are missing the point. Kids that have success in the system tend to give back later in life. I have two examples that you won't find in Indiana. One friend, a two time(1 time runner-up) D2 placer in Ohio, wrestled in college for four years and was one match from AA at the NAIA level. He is now coaching the biddy program at his former school. Great coach, maybe, maybe not, but he knows his stuff and is giving back to the sport. Another friend, a one time D2 placer, 2X NAIA champ and one match from AA in D1 now coaches a biddy program also. Both guys would be great assets to any high school or even college programs, but because of their job or family commitments cannot do so. Instead they are still giving back at another level, which to me is GREAT for the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenadier2012 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I didn't miss the point, I just turned it around like you and Hungus have been doing to the mostly legitimate statements of the other posters on this topic. I say mostly because even the non-class advocates know which posts are not helping our case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I didn't miss the point, I just turned it around like you and Hungus have been doing to the mostly legitimate statements of the other posters on this topic. I say mostly because even the non-class advocates know which posts are not helping our case. No you made an ignorant statement, kids with more wrestling experience are always going to be better coaches in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 No I didn't. You said you would hate to win a state championship in a classed sport because you would wonder the rest of you life if you were better than a bigger school. My response associated your comment about hating to win a state title with the absurdity of how it would affect the rest of their lives. You seem to think it would have some negative affect on the rest of their lives. I think that is a silly statement. Obliviously I do not. That is what makes us different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Obliviously I do not. That is what makes us different. Just think of all those poor kids that have won classed titles in this state and in others. No wonder this country is going the way it is now. Those damn Democrats have their filthy paws in everything and it all started in the 50's and 60's with classing of sports at the high school level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenadier2012 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I don't see how the statement was ignorant. You always want statistical data to back up arguments, as do I. Which I can almost guarantee you would have none to solidify that particular argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Just think of all those poor kids that have won classed titles in this state and in others. No wonder this country is going the way it is now. Those damn Democrats have their filthy paws in everything and it all started in the 50's and 60's with classing of sports at the high school level. You lump the Classing of Sports as a one. Do you believe that Wrestling is the same as football as far as classing goes. This discussion is a Class Wrestling discussion. I am not a fan of Class Sports, but no way would I ever support Class Wrestling. Reasoning- Weight classes equal out (not like a football team with a 300lb average on the offensive line and a small school with 200lb defense linemen) Though they win/lose as a team it is an individual competition Wrestling is a much smaller sport (by the numbers ,$, spectators, participants etc) going to class system would make it too easy to win at all levels, which would make winning less important. You argue that is would encourage more athlete to participate. Formula Success = more support= more athletes in the room. Good argument! But I want the athletes that want to be there. If my program has to be a winner for you to play....I don't want you! Go try out for basketball! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenadier2012 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Just think of all those poor kids that have won classed titles in this state and in others. No wonder this country is going the way it is now. Those damn Democrats have their filthy paws in everything and it all started in the 50's and 60's with classing of sports at the high school level. Point proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I can only talk Bloomington South cuz that is where my son goes. Wrestling has a bad reputation as far as work goes ( as I am sure most programs have) We have an enrollment of 1736 so we are a large school. So we start the year with 65-70 Wrestlers right....Wrong! Averages over the last 4 years (thats all I have) Start of Season Day one we average 34 wrestlers. That is returning wrestlers 2-3 new non Freshmen and the Freshmen from the middle schools. Start of wrestling (1st dual) actual roster average 26. ( the rest have quit) Start of Sectionals / post season actual roster average of 22 (injury or quit) 22 wrestlers and we continuously compete ( we have one the sectional 21 of the past 22 years) I am guessing even the smallest schools can produce those numbers. The difference is the 22 that remain have been in the feeder system for an average of 9 years! It is hard for a small school to develop a feeder system, but it can be done. I challenge you to show me a school that has support for wrestling that cannot produce those numbers. You may need 75 boys to make a football team, but 25 wrestlers with the right mind-set can be enough to win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 School that I coach started with 16 and had 7 at sectionals. 16 is more than 10% of our boy enrollment. When attrition his big school, most still fill the line up and can be competitive as a team. When attrition hits small school, there is little chance of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 School that I coach started with 16 and had 7 at sectionals. 16 is more than 10% of our boy enrollment. When attrition his big school, most still fill the line up and can be competitive as a team. When attrition hits small school, there is little chance of success. Hard to argue those numbers!!! Would like to hear more small school numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Hard to argue those numbers!!! Would like to hear more small school numbers. In our sectional..... Smallest School 7 active, 3 in finals Next Smallest 7 actice, 5 in finals Next Smallest after that 10 active, 3 in the finals So we don't compete because we don't work hard enough? Baloney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 And to pat ourselves on the back a little, all seven qualified for regional. Not the toughest sectional in the world but still noteworthy for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 In our sectional..... Smallest School 7 active, 3 in finals Next Smallest 7 actice, 5 in finals Next Smallest after that 10 active, 3 in the finals So we don't compete because we don't work hard enough? Baloney. Where did the "don't work hard enough" come from? Missed that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Where did the "don't work hard enough" come from? Missed that! Then why aren't we competitive? Because we are small? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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