Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Class wrestling huh? NO size doesn't matter, its the school! Team Duals look the 2 that have been there the most Bellmont and Mater Dei, they have seen each other sometimes in other sports that have classes. Why, because both school are in 3A and 2A classes. How do you tell the person next to you, "Yeah, we had the best team in the state because we won the 5A championship," when you have the tradition of these two programs in lower classes or even New Castle for that matter (they made their appreances at team state), I do NOT believe you can. Teams or people cannot be scared of teams from a higher class and expect to win (we are HOOSIERS, they made a movie about it, different sport but none the less). Never be scared, Never back down are you will never make it that's the what I was always told. They only thing a class systems does is leave ?s on who really is the best. To say you are the best team with no doubt, everyone else has to fall. Yeah, you could do a tournament of champs the following weekend with excuses on it doesn't matter, our day was at state, injuries, etc.., so why not keep it in 1 weekend 1 TRUE TEAM STATE CHAMPION! Not every small school is scared to run with the bigger dogs!!! Back in the 1950's when Hoosiers was made there was segregation and black and white TV's too. Some areas of society have progressed from the 1950's, some have not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well if yu think about it wrestling a class system in an individual sense is stupid. Everyone wants to be a true champion. The best. That is what the IHSAA wants. Now in a team sense I can understand a class system because of depth and multiple kids competing for a spot. If an athlete in a small school wants to be a champion on his own he just needs to get out and do tournaments himself in the offseason and decide that wrestling is the sport he wishes to pursue. I looked all over the IHSAA site and nowhere did I see it stating the goals of the association were to have a "true champion." I am willing to bet that no where on that site did you see that they were money hungry fools either, but that is a different arguement. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Let's just say that we do move to a class system. How do we do it? If you got to a 2 class system, the smallest schools will gripe about being outmatched by the biggest schools in Class A, as is with Class AA. The same argument will be made if you go to a 3 or 4 or 5 class system. There isn't going to be a system that makes everyone happy. If you ask me, city schools have a big advantage over rural schools. Maybe we should class schools by the population of their counties. This is the issue with classes. What is deemed absolute fairness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUBjj171 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well if yu think about it wrestling a class system in an individual sense is stupid. Everyone wants to be a true champion. The best. That is what the IHSAA wants. Now in a team sense I can understand a class system because of depth and multiple kids competing for a spot. If an athlete in a small school wants to be a champion on his own he just needs to get out and do tournaments himself in the offseason and decide that wrestling is the sport he wishes to pursue. I looked all over the IHSAA site and nowhere did I see it stating the goals of the association were to have a "true champion." But would it really be better to have 3 people all claiming to be state champions at the same weight? I mean they are all the same weight. Whats separating them from competing? The size of the school where they live. There is no class system when they go to tournaments. then again if there is a class system we would all be on here after Conseco arguing who wouldve won if we werent in a class system. Something to do i guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Let's just say that we do move to a class system. How do we do it? If you got to a 2 class system, the smallest schools will gripe about being outmatched by the biggest schools in Class A, as is with Class AA. The same argument will be made if you go to a 3 or 4 or 5 class system. There isn't going to be a system that makes everyone happy. If you ask me, city schools have a big advantage over rural schools. Maybe we should class schools by the population of their counties. This is the issue with classes. What is deemed absolute fairness? These same arguments populate the football and basketball messageboards. No one ever said there was a full proof system, but lets at least make an effort at something approaching consistant and equitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 But exactly half of the chances to go to state are with the bigger schools and half are with the smaller schools. Bigger schools do not get to send 20 kids to sectional, they send 14 just like a small school. But should a school with an enrollment of 1,000 be more likely to find a better 103 lber (112, 119, etc.) than a school with 500? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 As listed on the IHSAA web site for 4 class sports. I am not entirely sure which side this supports, but it is some nice numbers for all you number freaks out there to play with. If you are in favor of class wrestling, I guess you could say that since 5 of the 8 teams are from class 4, that shows a needc for class wrestling. If you are against class wrestling, you could say yes, 5 are from class 4A, but there are 3 from 3A and 2A, which shows a balance of power amopng team state finalists. Crown Point 2289 #14 4A Perry Meridian 2132 #23 4A Castle 1786 #43 4A Mishawaka 1692 #47 4A Indianapolis Cathedral 1286 #83 4A Roncalli 1111 #104 3A Bellmont 894 #127 3A Delphi Community 522 #224 2A 400 Schools listed for 2007-2011 So 7 of the 8 schools are in the top half of the enrollment and there is parity between big and small schools..... oh my Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 But should a school with an enrollment of 1,000 be more likely to find a better 103 lber (112, 119, etc.) than a school with 500? YES! I would guess with all other things being equal they would 2x more likely to find a better kid a each weight class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Let's just say that we do move to a class system. How do we do it? If you got to a 2 class system, the smallest schools will gripe about being outmatched by the biggest schools in Class A, as is with Class AA. The same argument will be made if you go to a 3 or 4 or 5 class system. There isn't going to be a system that makes everyone happy. If you ask me, city schools have a big advantage over rural schools. Maybe we should class schools by the population of their counties. This is the issue with classes. What is deemed absolute fairness? Along with what Karl said, wouldn't be a more equitable solution to have two classes than the one we have now? Are you saying if we can't achieve 100% success we shouldn't even try? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well if yu think about it wrestling a class system in an individual sense is stupid. Everyone wants to be a true champion. The best. That is what the IHSAA wants. Now in a team sense I can understand a class system because of depth and multiple kids competing for a spot. If an athlete in a small school wants to be a champion on his own he just needs to get out and do tournaments himself in the offseason and decide that wrestling is the sport he wishes to pursue. I looked all over the IHSAA site and nowhere did I see it stating the goals of the association were to have a "true champion." But would it really be better to have 3 people all claiming to be state champions at the same weight? I mean they are all the same weight. Whats separating them from competing? The size of the school where they live. There is no class system when they go to tournaments. then again if there is a class system we would all be on here after Conseco arguing who wouldve won if we werent in a class system. Something to do i guess Other states seem to do just fine with it. On top of that many of the top kids will see eachother during in season tournaments and at the offseason ones too. Do you see Sheridan and Carmel arguing who the best team in the state is in football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Along with what Karl said, wouldn't be a more equitable solution to have two classes than the one we have now? Are you saying if we can't achieve 100% success we shouldn't even try? Depends on what your goal is. If you want to smaller schools kids to feel good about themselves and be able to call themselves state champions. Then yes, let's go for it. But I'm for improving the quality of the product out there, and there's nothing that a class system does to suggests that it does that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 My goal is for "one true champion wrestler," so lets get rid of weight classes so we don't just have all these 103lbers calling themselves state champions when they couldn't beat a 152lbs regional qualifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 My goal is for "one true champion wrestler," so lets get rid of weight classes so we don't just have all these 103lbers calling themselves state champions when they couldn't beat a 152lbs regional qualifier. HEY!!! You're onto something here, I love it. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Depends on what your goal is. If you want to smaller schools kids to feel good about themselves and be able to call themselves state champions. Then yes, let's go for it. But I'm for improving the quality of the product out there, and there's nothing that a class system does to suggests that it does that. The first part of your statment is quite patronizing to small school athletes. I would hope you don't think the smaller schools that win state titles in other sports aren't merely getting "participation awards" or "lucky duck" awards because they go to a smaller school. Would not more wrestlers attending college to wrestle and then returning home to give back improve the product? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I am not a fan of class sports, but. I would have no problem with a team tourney in the class format, but I like the all in one individule tourney. I mean we do break out weight classes for 14 different classes, so if we went to 2-3 classes for the team event, that would be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 My comment was in response to this statement. I hope you get the point that stating absurd things like that don't get you anywhere. I guess Sheridan got a state title this year because the IHSAA wanted them to "feel good." It probably wasn't because of hard work or dedication or a great coaching staff. Depends on what your goal is. If you want to smaller schools kids to feel good about themselves and be able to call themselves state champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsaw Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 wow.. i just stepped in the door and this thread is out of control! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 wow.. i just stepped in the door and this thread is out of control! Hide the women and children!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbulldog152 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 so it's fair for lets say Wright or Eppert to finish 2nd while some one they might have major could win state? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I am not a fan of class sports, but. I would have no problem with a team tourney in the class format, but I like the all in one individule tourney. I mean we do break out weight classes for 14 different classes, so if we went to 2-3 classes for the team event, that would be ok. The question you have to ask yourself is "what do we have high school athletics for?" Is it to find "one true champion" or is it some other reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 so it's fair for lets say Wright or Eppert to finish 2nd while some one they might have major could win state? Carmel would crush Sheridan by 40 points but no one questions the fairness of the football system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cewrestlingfan Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 How then do we make it fair for the big school kids that are the second or 3rd guy in the weight class and can't break the varsity lineup. Do we implement a JV state tournament to make it fair for those kids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Illinois has a freshman/sophomore state championship and I love that idea. I think the more exposure you give the sport and its athletes the better off it is. Illinois just went to a 3 class system and like 75% of the coaches voted FOR it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbulldog152 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 so it's fair for lets say Wright or Eppert to finish 2nd while some one they might have major could win state? Carmel would crush Sheridan by 40 points but no one questions the fairness of the football system. but it get's more personal in an individual sport that a team sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I am not a fan of class sports, but. I would have no problem with a team tourney in the class format, but I like the all in one individule tourney. I mean we do break out weight classes for 14 different classes, so if we went to 2-3 classes for the team event, that would be ok. The question you have to ask yourself is "what do we have high school athletics for?" Is it to find "one true champion" or is it some other reason? As in everything it is to find the best. As an individule, that means taking on all comers. As a team, there does have to be certain consessions made to the fact that larger schools should have better over all teams. It does take having more quality practice partners, people to step in when the varsity guy gets hurt and so on to make a great team. However an individule can and often has in this state taken it upon himself to say that nothing is going to stop him, and he is going to win state. That does not matter what size school you come from. Let me ask something here, who would be put on an all time best team from the state? I am guessing a few from EMD, and I know of atleast one from Hanover Central, both of those schools would be in the lower class if we had a 2-3 class system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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