Class Wrestling?????

[Y2CJ41]

Swain,

Can you find a public school in the state with these numbers?

Graduation Rate:    99%   

Daily Attendance Rate:    98%

 

Graduate Information:

  4-year college-university:    81%

  2-year college:    14%

  Military:    less than 1%

  Job Entry:  4%

 

Mater Dei might have the same amount of students, but they have a lot higher quality students than a public school of the same size.

[Y2CJ41]

By a sport being single class the state association is stating that no matter the size of the school everyone is equal.  Agree or disagree?

[snoopy]

If the IHSAA board is stuck with no  change, maybe a slight change from ISWA would help. During the IHSAA season maybe the coaches should be able to select maybe 2 of our weigh ins as an open meet. Possibley designate the holiday break as an open contest period. Maybe the real star could go to something like the midlands. Possibly an Al Smith open. The stud from the A class school could enter. The 5A class kid that has ok ability could enter a meet at say a class A school geared for the OK kid. Then maybe another school might have a beginners tourney. This would eliminate the current problem presented at "J-V tourneys". The real quality kid that is second string smashing a rookie. After a couple of years the quality would be evident. Some school may get 1st and 2nd in a weight class but not get penalized by not having an entry in another class. No team awards would be given just individual.

[swain358]

My point is that they build their wrestlers from their youth program.. Get your youth program strong and you will have some great wrestlers in your high school program in time.. Not directed at your program because i know that you guys at garrett are building a very strong youth wrestling and high school program. Youth program is more important than your high school program..

[Silence Dogood]

By a sport being single class the state association is stating that no matter the size of the school everyone is equal.  Agree or disagree?

 

It means they treat everyone equally.  An individual from a small school has the same opportunity to make it to state as an individual from a big school.  

 

 

But it doesn't mean that all individuals are of equal talent.  And the probability that an individual with state caliber talent happens to attend a big school as opposed to a small school is 3:1.  

 

[allyourbase]

I suppose I don't like class wrestling because I came from the era of non-class team state champoinships.  We did ok placing 4th(as a small school) in the state tournament.

 

Silly me holding on to the past.

Did you also come from an era when there was no internet?  Sometimes progression and change is good for society.

 

Being as the development of what we now call the Internet started in 1957, I guess I am from the internet age.

 

Sometimes change is not good for society.

[allyourbase]

Let me throw this into the mix.

 

 I'll admit that a state championship doesn't mean any less whether there is one class or five.  

 

Is that right, you really believe that?

 

It's not about cheapening the value of the championship, it's about allowing our wrestlers to achieve their greatest potential.

 

Giving them a somewhat easier path, which is exactly what it would be, to see that "potential".

 

[Merlyn]

I suport it for team but not individual, but I doubt the ihsaa would go for that.

[NickS]

So what happens when the IHSAA institutes a 2-class system, but instead of having 2 classes of 16 man weight classes.  They have 2 classes of 8 man weight classes to keep in line with the 224 state qualifier format?  What kind of positive impact would that have on Indiana wrestling?

[Trinedad]

Lets move this discussion a different way, lets assume we have class wrestling.

 

http://www.ihsaa.org/announcements/2006-07/0708Classifications.pdf

 

That is the link to the 4 class system being used for the IHSAA sports that are not football.

 

Using that, what would the team states look like for each class, considering that they only take 2 teams from each class to state, we wont have any more kids there for the team portion. Also we are going to have to make some assumptions that if they do institute class wrestling, they would do something to the qualifying requirements. I doubt that they take 224 from each class, due to the fact that to do so would require them to rent out conseco for a much longer period of time. I am guessing they drop it to the top eight in each class to get to a total of 448. Or they might go to the top 4 to keep it at the 224 that are there now. You wont get more kids to state, but you will redistribute the kids that make it there more evenly between small and large school kids.

[Y2CJ41]

Let me throw this into the mix.

 

 I'll admit that a state championship doesn't mean any less whether there is one class or five.  

 

Is that right, you really believe that?

 

It's not about cheapening the value of the championship, it's about allowing our wrestlers to achieve their greatest potential.

 

Giving them a somewhat easier path, which is exactly what it would be, to see that "potential".

 

Did Mishawka celebrate their state championship in wrestling any more or less than Jimtown did in football?  I would say no, both got trophies, both got rings, etc.

[TripleB]

I'm pages behind so this could be irrelevant.

 

But isn't the IHSWCA open to all coaches, it's not the Illuminati.  If people want to join, they can join. Sounds like it's coaches faults(like myself) for not joining, not the IHSWCA.

[Y2CJ41]

So what happens when the IHSAA institutes a 2-class system, but instead of having 2 classes of 16 man weight classes.  They have 2 classes of 8 man weight classes to keep in line with the 224 state qualifier format?  What kind of positive impact would that have on Indiana wrestling?

The big schools would see a decrease of 25% in state qualifiers, while small schools will see an increase of 25%.  The positive impact would be small schools would see a jump in participation and exposure, while the bigger schools would  possibly see a decrease since their state qualifiers and placers would be cut.

[Trinedad]

So what happens when the IHSAA institutes a 2-class system, but instead of having 2 classes of 16 man weight classes.  They have 2 classes of 8 man weight classes to keep in line with the 224 state qualifier format?  What kind of positive impact would that have on Indiana wrestling?

The big schools would see a decrease of 25% in state qualifiers, while small schools will see an increase of 25%.  The positive impact would be small schools would see a jump in participation and exposure, while the bigger schools would  possibly see a decrease since their state qualifiers and placers would be cut.

 

 

So what you are saying is you are all for cutting the kids from the big schools, simply because they live in a district that happens to have a large school. And this helps promote the sport how? Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the answer.

[allyourbase]

Let me throw this into the mix.

 

 I'll admit that a state championship doesn't mean any less whether there is one class or five.  

 

Is that right, you really believe that?

 

It's not about cheapening the value of the championship, it's about allowing our wrestlers to achieve their greatest potential.

 

Giving them a somewhat easier path, which is exactly what it would be, to see that "potential".

 

Did Mishawka celebrate their state championship in wrestling any more or less than Jimtown did in football?  I would say no, both got trophies, both got rings, etc.

 

Again Y2, Team vs. Individual.

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

Lets move this discussion a different way, lets assume we have class wrestling.

 

http://www.ihsaa.org/announcements/2006-07/0708Classifications.pdf

 

That is the link to the 4 class system being used for the IHSAA sports that are not football.

 

Using that, what would the team states look like for each class, considering that they only take 2 teams from each class to state, we wont have any more kids there for the team portion. Also we are going to have to make some assumptions that if they do institute class wrestling, they would do something to the qualifying requirements. I doubt that they take 224 from each class, due to the fact that to do so would require them to rent out conseco for a much longer period of time. I am guessing they drop it to the top eight in each class to get to a total of 448. Or they might go to the top 4 to keep it at the 224 that are there now. You wont get more kids to state, but you will redistribute the kids that make it there more evenly between small and large school kids.

There are a ton of ways it could be done.  I will just say that I think two classes would be perfect for the short term.  If after two classes there is a need for another one then so be it.  I don't quite want to jump all the way into 4 or 5 classes without slowly progressing from 2-3-4.  That is the way they did it for football when they started the class system there.

 

With two classes you could cut down the number of weeks for the tournament to 3 weeks, Sectional, Regional, State.  With about 155 schools per class, you could have 16 sectionals that feed into four regionals that all feed to state.   I would say 12-16 qualifiers per weight class per division.  

[allyourbase]

So what happens when the IHSAA institutes a 2-class system, but instead of having 2 classes of 16 man weight classes.  They have 2 classes of 8 man weight classes to keep in line with the 224 state qualifier format?  What kind of positive impact would that have on Indiana wrestling?

The big schools would see a decrease of 25% in state qualifiers, while small schools will see an increase of 25%.  The positive impact would be small schools would see a jump in participation and exposure, while the bigger schools would  possibly see a decrease since their state qualifiers and placers would be cut.

 

 

So what you are saying is you are all for cutting the kids from the big schools, simply because they live in a district that happens to have a large school. And this helps promote the sport how? Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the answer.

 

wahoo for you W.

[Y2CJ41]

So what happens when the IHSAA institutes a 2-class system, but instead of having 2 classes of 16 man weight classes. They have 2 classes of 8 man weight classes to keep in line with the 224 state qualifier format? What kind of positive impact would that have on Indiana wrestling?

The big schools would see a decrease of 25% in state qualifiers, while small schools will see an increase of 25%. The positive impact would be small schools would see a jump in participation and exposure, while the bigger schools would possibly see a decrease since their state qualifiers and placers would be cut.

 

 

So what you are saying is you are all for cutting the kids from the 155 big schools, simply because they live in a district that happens to have a large school. And this helps promote the sport how? Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the answer.

I never stated I was for allowing eight qualifiers per class, I was simply answering his question.

 

So the big schools would get deprived of those spots at state you THINK they earned just because they are big? Its the same thing the small schools have to face every year. There are basically four spots at state at each weight class for 155 of the smallest schools. Is that "fair" to them? Right now the system is robbing from the poor and giving to the rich, is that how our society should work?

 

Right now there are 56 spots at state for 155 small schools, while there are 168 spots at state for big schools. Thats not very equal now is it.

[Y2CJ41]

Let me throw this into the mix.

 

 I'll admit that a state championship doesn't mean any less whether there is one class or five.  

 

Is that right, you really believe that?

 

It's not about cheapening the value of the championship, it's about allowing our wrestlers to achieve their greatest potential.

 

Giving them a somewhat easier path, which is exactly what it would be, to see that "potential".

 

Did Mishawka celebrate their state championship in wrestling any more or less than Jimtown did in football?  I would say no, both got trophies, both got rings, etc.

 

Again Y2, Team vs. Individual.

They are one and the same to me.  If we get a state champion, the team will celebrate it because its more than just one person's accomplishment.  It won't matter if its 1A or no A.

[Trinedad]

Lets move this discussion a different way, lets assume we have class wrestling.

 

http://www.ihsaa.org/announcements/2006-07/0708Classifications.pdf

 

That is the link to the 4 class system being used for the IHSAA sports that are not football.

 

Using that, what would the team states look like for each class, considering that they only take 2 teams from each class to state, we wont have any more kids there for the team portion. Also we are going to have to make some assumptions that if they do institute class wrestling, they would do something to the qualifying requirements. I doubt that they take 224 from each class, due to the fact that to do so would require them to rent out conseco for a much longer period of time. I am guessing they drop it to the top eight in each class to get to a total of 448. Or they might go to the top 4 to keep it at the 224 that are there now. You wont get more kids to state, but you will redistribute the kids that make it there more evenly between small and large school kids.

There are a ton of ways it could be done.  I will just say that I think two classes would be perfect for the short term.  If after two classes there is a need for another one then so be it.  I don't quite want to jump all the way into 4 or 5 classes without slowly progressing from 2-3-4.  That is the way they did it for football when they started the class system there.

 

With two classes you could cut down the number of weeks for the tournament to 3 weeks, Sectional, Regional, State.  With about 155 schools per class, you could have 16 sectionals that feed into four regionals that all feed to state.   I would say 12-16 qualifiers per weight class per division.  

 

But I dont see them reinventing the wheel since they have a 5 and a 4 class system already in place. I think the best you could hope for is if they do decide to go to a 3 class system for the sports that are 4 class now. Also, no way they increase the number of kids that go to state if it requires them to rent out conseco for more time. They will either keep it to the same number of kids, or move the event to a less expensive site. Your choice, do you want to have large schools reduce the numbers of kids in their rooms so the small schools can keep the same number of kids in theirs. You have already said that at a small school, you have to share the athletes with the other sports teams that there just are not enough to go around. Since you cant get more kids in the room, all you are going to do is bring less kids into the sport at the large schools.

[allyourbase]

 

They are one and the same to me.  If we get a state champion, the team will celebrate it because its more than just one person's accomplishment.  It won't matter if its 1A or no A.

 

Wow.

 

I disagree.  How many kids from your team go out to wrestle each match, more then one?

[allyourbase]

You can save the practice chatter, I get that a kid has to practice with someone.

 

[Y2CJ41]

 

They are one and the same to me.  If we get a state champion, the team will celebrate it because its more than just one person's accomplishment.  It won't matter if its 1A or no A.

One kid goes out on the mat, but at the same time the kid can thank his practice partners for getting him to the level he is at. 

 

Have you ever seen a kid that improved and became a stud basically because of being in a weight class surrounded by studs?  I know I have a kid on my team that fits that mold perfectly.  He is a hard worker and is forced/chooses to go with the three best kids on the team each and every day.  He has his moments, but he takes more lumps that he gives out.  He has improved greatly because of the quality of practice partners he has.  If he didn't have those three guys to kick his butt each and every day, he would have improved, but not at the same rate.

 

Wow.

 

I disagree.  How many kids from your team go out to wrestle each match, more then one?

[allyourbase]

 

They are one and the same to me.  If we get a state champion, the team will celebrate it because its more than just one person's accomplishment.  It won't matter if its 1A or no A.

One kid goes out on the mat, but at the same time the kid can thank his practice partners for getting him to the level he is at. 

 

Have you ever seen a kid that improved and became a stud basically because of being in a weight class surrounded by studs?  I know I have a kid on my team that fits that mold perfectly.  He is a hard worker and is forced/chooses to go with the three best kids on the team each and every day.  He has his moments, but he takes more lumps that he gives out.  He has improved greatly because of the quality of practice partners he has.  If he didn't have those three guys to kick his butt each and every day, he would have improved, but not at the same rate.

 

Wow.

 

I disagree.  How many kids from your team go out to wrestle each match, more then one?

 

You can give them all the thanks in the world, still only one champion. (well, unless there are more then 1 class) 

[ArmyofOne]

I am new to this topic of class wrestling.  I know that other sports in Indiana have classes, but of those sports how many are individual sports come tournament time?  I just don't understand how you can class schools based on enrollment.  If a school has 1000 students but only 20 of them participate in wrestling, they could be in a different class than a school that has only 500 students with 40 participating in wrestling.  Just because a school has more students doesn't mean that they are all going to participate in sports.  If you are to class wrestling then you should look at the number of participants from the last 8 years (just a number, could be any number of years) and class them based on participation in the sport.  I will say that I am not for class wrestling personally, but I do understand where people are for it are coming from.