Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Can a classed team tournament solve address most of the problems without being as controversial (based on the responses here, it seems that a classed team tournament would be less controversial than an classed individual tournament)? Somewhat, but at the same time it won't address it to the fullest potential. How would you explain a state championship team without any state qualifiers? What is there to explain - they would be a team in the true sense of the word. Just like any other team that gets the job done without any all-stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I don't have the stats, but to me it seems many small schools are struggling mightily fielding full teams more than they did 10 years ago. wouldnt this explain why theres more state qualifiers from big schools? Of course it would, no question. So we should just accept it and let wrestling at the small school level just die off like the dinosaurs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midget5589 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I don't have the stats, but to me it seems many small schools are struggling mightily fielding full teams more than they did 10 years ago. wouldnt this explain why theres more state qualifiers from big schools? Of course it would, no question. So we should just accept it and let wrestling at the small school level just die off like the dinosaurs? definately not, but if small school people work harder than they should have to(which i know is not a fair solution) then they can get a good sized amount of kids in the room, ive never been in your room but your program seems to be doing very good compared to some other small school and something tells me that might have something to do with your everlasting effort to get as many kids out of the hallways into the wrestling room Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Can a classed team tournament solve address most of the problems without being as controversial (based on the responses here, it seems that a classed team tournament would be less controversial than an classed individual tournament)? Somewhat, but at the same time it won't address it to the fullest potential. How would you explain a state championship team without any state qualifiers? What is there to explain - they would be a team in the true sense of the word. Just like any other team that gets the job done without any all-stars. The big match-ups that would increase interest at all levels of wrestling wouldn't happen like they would if we went to a classed individual format. For instance, how often would there be a 1A team champion or qualifier really wrestle a 3A or 4A champion or qualifier? Not many times, because during the regular season most schools stick to conference teams and schools of their general size. Mishawaka isn't going to come dual Garrett any time soon unless somehow we back our way into the Bellmont duals or something, but they aren't going to make a special trip to wrestle a potential 2A top four team. On the individual side though you would get to see a lot more match-ups at events like Connersville or the Al Smith with matches like a Kannon Keigley who would be a 1A placer or champ vs. Lentz from Mishawaka a 2A placer or champ. If you add 112 more state placers, there is a greater chance of having them meet up rather than having 8-16 more teams that are qualifiers or state champs at the team level. The match-ups that will generate fan interest is seeing if the 1A placer can beat the 2A champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 There are numerous reasons for such a low membership, feel free to survey Tony Abbot as to why he's not a member or any of the other 170+ head coaches that aren't members. I will. Then would you like me to post his answer? I am sure he appreciates being called out on a forum. I just pointed out that some coaches have been displeased with the organization and maybe that is a reason for low numbers. You were one of the coaches who voiced some displeasure with the IHSWCA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I don't have the stats, but to me it seems many small schools are struggling mightily fielding full teams more than they did 10 years ago. wouldnt this explain why theres more state qualifiers from big schools? Of course it would, no question. So we should just accept it and let wrestling at the small school level just die off like the dinosaurs? definately not, but if small school people work harder than they should have to(which i know is not a fair solution) then they can get a good sized amount of kids in the room, ive never been in your room but your program seems to be doing very good compared to some other small school and something tells me that might have something to do with your everlasting effort to get as many kids out of the hallways into the wrestling room Lets not go back to the "work harder" solution. That honestly is a slap in the face of the small school wrestlers and coaches. I will just say its a struggle to field a full team each and every year and I believe this year was the first time in about 10 years that we had all 14 weight classes filled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatChick76 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 OK...so have we come to any consensus after 26 pages? My vote is to stay classless, especially for the individual tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 There are numerous reasons for such a low membership, feel free to survey Tony Abbot as to why he's not a member or any of the other 170+ head coaches that aren't members. I will. Then would you like me to post his answer? I am sure he appreciates being called out on a forum. I just pointed out that some coaches have been displeased with the organization and maybe that is a reason for low numbers. You were one of the coaches who voiced some displeasure with the IHSWCA. You have someone that you can ask about it personally, I was just telling you to go ask someone that you could talk to in the next couple hours. I might not be 100% satisfied with the way things work in the IHSWCA, but I will still support them in their endeavors as they are trying to help wrestling grow. The IHSWCA and I both have the same goals, but different ideas on how to achieve them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midget5589 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I don't have the stats, but to me it seems many small schools are struggling mightily fielding full teams more than they did 10 years ago. wouldnt this explain why theres more state qualifiers from big schools? Of course it would, no question. So we should just accept it and let wrestling at the small school level just die off like the dinosaurs? definately not, but if small school people work harder than they should have to(which i know is not a fair solution) then they can get a good sized amount of kids in the room, ive never been in your room but your program seems to be doing very good compared to some other small school and something tells me that might have something to do with your everlasting effort to get as many kids out of the hallways into the wrestling room Lets not go back to the "work harder" solution. That honestly is a slap in the face of the small school wrestlers and coaches. I will just say its a struggle to field a full team each and every year and I believe this year was the first time in about 10 years that we had all 14 weight classes filled. i guess my point was you seem to have a lot of "quality" wrestlers(just by looking at records) compared to other schools of your size, and as of now we dont have class wrestling so the "work harder" solution is all small schools have right now so if they dont want to work harder than they should have to(which i know sucks) then they arent going to have the quality and quantity of big schools...hmm every word i type is making me agree with you a little more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsaw Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 There are numerous reasons for such a low membership, feel free to survey Tony Abbot as to why he's not a member or any of the other 170+ head coaches that aren't members. I will. Then would you like me to post his answer? I am sure he appreciates being called out on a forum. I just pointed out that some coaches have been displeased with the organization and maybe that is a reason for low numbers. You were one of the coaches who voiced some displeasure with the IHSWCA. You have someone that you can ask about it personally, I was just telling you to go ask someone that you could talk to in the next couple hours. I might not be 100% satisfied with the way things work in the IHSWCA, but I will still support them in their endeavors as they are trying to help wrestling grow. The IHSWCA and I both have the same goals, but different ideas on how to achieve them. amen brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm not concerned about my program specifically. I know the struggles and sacrifice that went into building the program into what it is today. For instance in 2002, they had 6 wrestlers on the team. Not many coaches will come to a small school to build a program, they will go to a bigger one with many more resources when the opportunity arises. Many coaches at the small school level are using it as a stepping stone to a bigger school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BizzyCoach Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I am a new member of the IHSWCA, and am glad that I am. However, I may not have even known of the organization had it not been for my high school coaches and the head coach that I now coach under. As a collective group, we need to encourage our wrestlers to participate in the many facets of the sport such as officiating, coaching, summer camps, RTC's, freestyle, greco, etc. Beyond this, I wonder how many high school kids actively visit this or other wrestling sites or even know they exist. For those of us involved heavily in the sport, wrestling is a way of life, but we need to generate excitement and knowledge beyond ourselves. For a 16, 17, or 18 year old there is nothing better than their teachers, peers, and community to take an interest in them. They get much of this interest when they are successful, and only when they are successful. That being said, I am not in favor of a multiple class system in the individual tournament. I have coached and participated in the high school wrestling arena here in Indiana and in our neighboring Illinois. Illinois, as of this year, has a three class system. In the past they had two classes. It was my observation that though many more wrestlers had a chance to advance, those in downstate Illinois did not see the level of competion as the Chicago area schools on a regular basis. When it came time for the state tournament the Chicago area schools were very successful. It is my opinion that this was due to the proximity of the schools to other competitive schools of size in downstate Illinois. The school at which I coached was on the small side of the larger class in the old system and is now near the middle of the middle class in the new system. Though we produced state qualifiers, they generally were not prepared for the competition at the state meet. Also, the small schools that we would defeat regularly throughout the year would have individuals qualify for the smaller state meet that were not of the same caliber as those at the large school state. This produces a situation that allowed the larger schools to question the legitimacy of the smaller school wrestlers, and it allowed those same wrestlers to be bitter over this issue. Furthermore, on the occasion that a small school produced a great state champion, this individual would never be allowed to claim that he was the best wrestler, though he very well could have been. I concede that a class system may produce more support in the short term for local wrestling clubs. I also concede that I would support a multiple class system in the team tournament. Success is popular. But, if we truly wish to increase the level of competitiveness of all of our wrestlers in Indiana, then a single class system is the most effective method. Once again, I encourage you all to spread the news that wrestling is a great institution here in Indiana. Let those around you know the lessons that wrestling has taught you. Go to the state tournament (with your wrestlers) and watch the best compete. As with the free market, competition (tempered with positive reinforcement) breeds success, and our goal should be to make Indiana wrestling as successful as possible. I appologize for the lengthy post, but I felt it necessary to convey a complete argument in favor of single class wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Y2 I saw your questionnaire on the home page. Can you add a follow up question to whether Indiana needs class wrestling that asks whether the person is for classing both team and individual or just team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachRyan_Delta Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm not concerned about my program specifically. I know the struggles and sacrifice that went into building the program into what it is today. For instance in 2002, they had 6 wrestlers on the team. Not many coaches will come to a small school to build a program, they will go to a bigger one with many more resources when the opportunity arises. Many coaches at the small school level are using it as a stepping stone to a bigger school. Are they really?? Just looking around here: Trent took a terrible program, made them pretty good, and stayed. Ralph Smith at Wapahani is working on it, and I don't think he's headed anywhere. I'm kind of in the same ballpark as Ralph. I'm not arguing with you, I'm just wondering who does that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Very good poll on the homepage. The questions do not have any bias and they allow for individual responses. How long will you be collecting data? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 We aren't increasing the competitiveness when schools are dying off because they can't compete year in year out with schools 2-4X their size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BizzyCoach Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'd throw Dan Briggs of Union County into the mix of coaches who have stayed and become successful at small schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsaw Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Coaches that can help turn something out of nothing, and get their kids to believe that the small school can go head to head with the big school is a huge task....I can think of a select few coaches, (the majority of the ACAC coaches) who take on this task head first.....and are getting pretty good at taking out big schools....with fewer kids, fewer resources, and a much smaller staff.....they do everything they can for those kids! Most of those coaches are there, not as a stepping stone for their career, but to be the stepping stone for the kids, as they move on to college. A coach that can provide more to their kids, like college exposure, will rake in 10 X more experience and knowledge with kids coming back from college.....That I know for a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 We aren't increasing the competitiveness when schools are dying off because they can't compete year in year out with schools 2-4X their size. If this is a response to BizzyCoach, I believe he was only talking about the individual tournament. The problem you bring up could be alleviated with a class team tournament, while leaving the individual tournament one class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm not concerned about my program specifically. I know the struggles and sacrifice that went into building the program into what it is today. For instance in 2002, they had 6 wrestlers on the team. Not many coaches will come to a small school to build a program, they will go to a bigger one with many more resources when the opportunity arises. Many coaches at the small school level are using it as a stepping stone to a bigger school. Are they really?? Just looking around here: Trent took a terrible program, made them pretty good, and stayed. Ralph Smith at Wapahani is working on it, and I don't think he's headed anywhere. I'm kind of in the same ballpark as Ralph. I'm not arguing with you, I'm just wondering who does that. Cale Hoover, Lowell's coach, etc., Harper, Schaeffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Jim Tonte, Perry Meridian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 We aren't increasing the competitiveness when schools are dying off because they can't compete year in year out with schools 2-4X their size. If this is a response to BizzyCoach, I believe he was only talking about the individual tournament. The problem you bring up could be alleviated with a class team tournament, while leaving the individual tournament one class. It affects both areas though. If you can get one great kid in the room, his potential will be limited if you can't surround him with good coaches and good practice partners. I have seen numerous wrestlers at smaller schools that have the talent to be state place winners, yet they are hindered by the lack of solid practice partners or coaching or number of coaches. Smaller schools have limited budgets on how many paid coaches. They also have usually a limited area to find coaches from as they are usually rural schools. Add on top of the smaller number of teachers that could help out and you really limit the number and quality of the coaching staff at a small school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Cale Hoover, Lowell's coach, etc. Is Center Grove bigger than Anderson Highland? Where did Lowell's former coach go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Cale Hoover, Lowell's coach, etc. Is Center Grove bigger than Anderson Highland? Where did Lowell's former coach go? Considerably bigger and not near the socio-economic issues that swain had talked about earlier. The guy at lowell now was at a smaller school I believe. Not sure on that one though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Joe Willman was at Yorktown last year, now at Lowell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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