KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The quality of matches will be down at state and I wouldn't be as interested in first round matches. Are you saying that we should base our state tournament series on what you find interesting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Which of the above states are classed? I really don't know. What else might explain the differences and what can we do to bridge the gap? Class wrestling might help (still not convinced), but there have to be other ways Indiana can improve. Bold Classless states California- Worse Texas- Better than New York- Worse Florida- Even Illinois- Worse Pennsylvania- Worse Ohio- Worse Michigan- Worse Georgia- Better than North Carolina- Better than New Jersey- Worse Virginia- Even with States we are within 1 million people of and how we stack up Washington- Even Arizona- Better Massachusetts- Better Tennessee- Better Missouri- Worse Maryland- Better Wisconsin- Worse Minnesota- Worse Other states that are better than us that have less population Oregon Oklahoma Iowa Kansas If we assume that states with bigger populations are more likely to have more athletes that will be national caliber wrestlers, we are doing better than expected against 5 states with significantly larger populations (Texas, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, and Virginia), we are doing as good or better than expected against 5 states with similar populations (Washington, Arizona, Massachusetts, Tennessee, Maryland), and worse than expected against 7 similar sized or smaller states (Missouri, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Iowa, Kansas). Only one of the states is classed (Texas), so we are doing as good or better than expected versus 9 classed states and worse versus only 7 classed states. Something other than classes might explain the difference. If there are ways to accomplish the goal of making Indiana a stronger wrestling state that are less controversial than classing the individual tournament, why don't we try to identify them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 So I just figured Id look at IUs wrestling roster to see if you have to place at state to wrestle at college, even Big Ten. Christopher Tanner- 2nd at Sectionals Wesley Fike- Semi State Qualifier Seth Parker- State Qualifier For Purdue George Petrov- Semi State Qualifier Im sure there are more cases like this, but looks like you can still make it to college Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Only one of the states is classed (Texas), so we are doing as good or better than expected versus 9 classed states and worse versus only 7 classed states. Something other than classes might explain the difference. If there are ways to accomplish the goal of making Indiana a stronger wrestling state that are less controversial than classing the individual tournament, why don't we try to identify them? I'm all ears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Karl, I didn't know you looked like Ross Perot. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Texas just started sanctioning wrestling about 10 years ago. I really don't want to compare us to Texas in terms of wrestling history. They also have no collegiate wrestling teams, only NWCA teams. The only state that is close to us that you spouted off is Tennessee. All the other states are what most would call southern states. The Midwestern states(where the wrestling hotbed is in the US) we are pretty much dead last. I'm more concerned with getting our wrestling closer to the level of Michigan, Illinois, Ohio, Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, and Wisconsin than states like Florida, North Carolina, Texas and Arizona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Those are all DIII(small school) guys. I know they are the best by there performances in offseason tournaments and tournaments like the Ironman where the best of the best meet. Other guys I know are the best, David Taylor, Collin Palmer, etc. Do you think the other 171lbs champions are ashamed of their medals because Chris Phillips would probably beat them? They are probably just as proud as whoever will get 3rd at 171 at state this year. So is their school and community not going to celebrate their state championships? Is the principal going to say to them... we aren't going to put a picture of you in the hallway because you aren't the "true" state champion, we know Phillips would mop the mat with you? Do you think the newspaper article will say "Joe Schmoe Non-True State Champion?" Do you think he will get a ring that says "untrue State Champion" on it? At least in my school, you will get your picture up for the hall of fame if you get 3rd because it is quite the accomplishment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 So I just figured Id look at IUs wrestling roster to see if you have to place at state to wrestle at college, even Big Ten. Christopher Tanner- 2nd at Sectionals Wesley Fike- Semi State Qualifier Seth Parker- State Qualifier For Purdue George Petrov- Semi State Qualifier Im sure there are more cases like this, but looks like you can still make it to college How many are starters on their teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 So I just figured Id look at IUs wrestling roster to see if you have to place at state to wrestle at college, even Big Ten. Christopher Tanner- 2nd at Sectionals Wesley Fike- Semi State Qualifier Seth Parker- State Qualifier For Purdue George Petrov- Semi State Qualifier Im sure there are more cases like this, but looks like you can still make it to college anyone can walk on....now base your research on who aquires scholarships...and myabe ill listen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 So I just figured Id look at IUs wrestling roster to see if you have to place at state to wrestle at college, even Big Ten. Christopher Tanner- 2nd at Sectionals Wesley Fike- Semi State Qualifier Seth Parker- State Qualifier For Purdue George Petrov- Semi State Qualifier Im sure there are more cases like this, but looks like you can still make it to college Who? Who? Who? and Who? Are any of these guys getting any mat time? Are any getting any $$$? Would a system that exposes them to a greater range of wrestling possibilities post high school have benefited them by giving them more choices? Probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Only one of the states is classed (Texas), so we are doing as good or better than expected versus 9 classed states and worse versus only 7 classed states. Something other than classes might explain the difference. If there are ways to accomplish the goal of making Indiana a stronger wrestling state that are less controversial than classing the individual tournament, why don't we try to identify them? I'm all ears The burden of proof is on those trying to change the status quo. The information above doesn't neccessarily support the position that classing the individual tournament will make Indiana a stronger wrestling state. I don't follow the national scene that closely. Is there anything that the 7 states that we are doing worse than expected against are doing besides having a classed system that could explain the difference? Why are we doing better than some states that are bigger or similar size as us even though they have classes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Those are all DIII(small school) guys. I know they are the best by there performances in offseason tournaments and tournaments like the Ironman where the best of the best meet. Other guys I know are the best, David Taylor, Collin Palmer, etc. Do you think the other 171lbs champions are ashamed of their medals because Chris Phillips would probably beat them? They are probably just as proud as whoever will get 3rd at 171 at state this year. So is their school and community not going to celebrate their state championships? Is the principal going to say to them... we aren't going to put a picture of you in the hallway because you aren't the "true" state champion, we know Phillips would mop the mat with you? Do you think the newspaper article will say "Joe Schmoe Non-True State Champion?" Do you think he will get a ring that says "untrue State Champion" on it? At least in my school, you will get your picture up for the hall of fame if you get 3rd because it is quite the accomplishment so teams that won class sectional titles or placed in the state in classed sports probably don't get recognized? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Texas just started sanctioning wrestling about 10 years ago. I really don't want to compare us to Texas in terms of wrestling history. They also have no collegiate wrestling teams, only NWCA teams. The only state that is close to us that you spouted off is Tennessee. All the other states are what most would call southern states. The Midwestern states(where the wrestling hotbed is in the US) we are pretty much dead last. I'm more concerned with getting our wrestling closer to the level of Michigan, Illinois, Ohio, Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, and Wisconsin than states like Florida, North Carolina, Texas and Arizona. The problem with Indiana is it's a state rich in basketball history and culture, stuck in the middle of the "wrestling hotbed of the U.S." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The burden of proof is on those trying to change the status quo. The information above doesn't neccessarily support the position that classing the individual tournament will make Indiana a stronger wrestling state. I don't follow the national scene that closely. Is there anything that the 7 states that we are doing worse than expected against are doing besides having a classed system that could explain the difference? Why are we doing better than some states that are bigger or similar size as us even though they have classes? The states we are better than are from non-traditional areas for wrestling... which is mainly the south and the eastern seaboard except New York. We are in the heart of the wrestling hotbed, smack dab in the middle of Illinois and Ohio(two top 5 states). That is the biggest difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo nationwide is to have classes. Reasons probably have nothing to do with the quality of wrestling but more about creating an equitable playing field (ala Div 1, Div 2 and Div 3 in the NCAA) and of course $$$. Besides, Indiana already classes other sports. Be consistant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Texas just started sanctioning wrestling about 10 years ago. I really don't want to compare us to Texas in terms of wrestling history. They also have no collegiate wrestling teams, only NWCA teams. The only state that is close to us that you spouted off is Tennessee. All the other states are what most would call southern states. The Midwestern states(where the wrestling hotbed is in the US) we are pretty much dead last. I'm more concerned with getting our wrestling closer to the level of Michigan, Illinois, Ohio, Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, and Wisconsin than states like Florida, North Carolina, Texas and Arizona. The problem with Indiana is it's a state rich in basketball history and culture, stuck in the middle of the "wrestling hotbed of the U.S." So lets give the kids in wrestling more recognition and therefore get more exposure for the sport. The more exposure the more fans and wrestlers we will have. If football and basketball had the same amount of exposure we did, they wouldn't be the kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Besides, Indiana already classes other sports. Be consistant. Some, not all. What's good for the geese isn't necessarily good for the gander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Besides, Indiana already classes other sports. Be consistant. Some, not all. What's good for the geese isn't necessarily good for the gander. I obviously feel that what is good for the geese is good for the gander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Besides, Indiana already classes other sports. Be consistant. Some, not all. What's good for the geese isn't necessarily good for the gander. I obviously feel that what is good for the geese is good for the gander. It depends...has the goose faced any recognized good competition? The gander wrestled in the Al Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Hey, where's this thread heading? I'm not going to lie, I'm feeling a little vulnerable right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Hey, where's this thread heading? I'm not going to lie, I'm feeling a little vulnerable right now. your the one with the AK-47 in your picture ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 your the one with the AK-47 in your picture ;D and with good reason now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbulldog152 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 ok what would you rather have? Complete Class wrestling with no wrestle backs at state and I'm sure the IHSAA would take away team state Team Class wrestling individual is still in the same format or Complete wrestle backs so every individual will reach go the fatherest they can and not have to pray for a "good draw" I'm sorry be the IHSAA won't give into wrestling so I'd vote complete wrestle backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 ok what would you rather have? Complete Class wrestling with no wrestle backs at state and I'm sure the IHSAA would take away team state Team Class wrestling individual is still in the same format or Complete wrestle backs so every individual will reach go the fatherest they can and not have to pray for a "good draw" I'm sorry be the IHSAA won't give into wrestling so I'd vote complete wrestle backs. I am of the mind that the IHSAA would at least listen to a well constructed and well supported class plan that was supported by school principals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoopy Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Poor Horse! Lets take Mishawaka and divide it into 4 teams. 2 or 3 first stringers in each school. Lets say 103,145, and 215 in school A, 112,125, 285 in school B, 119, 130, 171 in school C, 135, 189, 152 in school D. 140 and 160 choose basketball in Indiana and at a smaller school, you know. We now need 4 rooms, 4 head coaches, 4 assistants. None of these teams get invited to the Al Smith because last year they had the dreaded forfeits. Remember with the IHSAA the coaches can not work with each other, the wrestlers can not work with each other until spring. With the smaller schools more of the wrestlers are multiple sport atheletes in order to help the schools in conference races, so much of the ISWA stuff is out. I would gladly schedule them with my 15-20 wrestlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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