NickS Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Some of this would stop if Indiana would institute riding time. Instituting the worst rule in college, at the high school level? I'm not much for encouraging glorified stalling. The goal should be to turn not to ride when you're on top. The only time I have a problem with cutting an opponent is when the guy is obviously far inferior. But when a guy is capable of putting up a fight, then I don't have an issue with cutting. However, I think the better wrestler should try to work turns eventually, not just rely on cutting. With that being said, if you've been riding a guy for 1+ minute without being able to turn. Maybe making it a takedown fest would be the best strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booker T Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Im pretty sure i read in one of the threads that Justin Brooks has 127 takedowns already this season?? He must be doing quite a bit of the ole take em down let em up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. RIght Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 i think we all kinda got the same opinion on this, establish a lead and work from there. You guys all get WAHOO'S from me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatSpeed Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Some of this would stop if Indiana would institute riding time. I have no problem with 3 or even 4 times, but when someone does it 10 or more times then I think they have crossed the line. You may differ, and that is ok, but I do think that it can go too far. AJ I would LOVE LOVE LOVE riding time to be instituted in the state of Indiana, Seriously I have been a HUGE advocate for that for quite some time now....However! We DO NOT have riding time so if I have a kid who isn't a "pinner" (which alot of my guys fall into that category!) and he is good on his feet then why not go for some extra points from the neutral position... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutsdad Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I think if you can't turn him then get the points the best way you can!!! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldman Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Both sides of this argument makes sense; however, I think it is more of how the Wrestler cuts and scores points that matters. I would rather see a couple of kids Wrestling vs. a series of stalls or a 12 second pin. Again, if the attitude of the Wrestler is to embarrass the other, that is where I have a problem with it. As one of my Sons friends said... Stay Classy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash513 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 This technique is not always used to demoralize or humiliate an opponent... There are matches and wrestlers where being on top of a wrestler is much more dangerous than being in a neutral position especially if you are the better wrestler on your feet. I have seen many wrestlers use this technique and only score a regular decision and keep themselves out of trouble against a much better ground wrestler. The goal is to win the match however you can and if that means beating an opponent 12-7 rather than 2-1 then he has still accomplished his goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldman Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 correct, i agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I personally see nothing wrong with cutting a guy time after time after time. Andrew Howe used to do this to guys and it made them extremely tired. He would then use this to his advantage to put takedown after takedown after takedown on the board. I'd venture to say that, YES, he was looking to embarrass guys. Isn't that part of the fun of wrestling, to completely demoralize your opponent? If we are supposed to care about the other guy's feelings, then this isn't a sport I want to be a part of any longer! What you describe is punking or bullying and I believe classless. Andrew Howe is a total class act. Andrew was not and is not about embarrassing guys. Maybe it is just a poor choice of words on your part. You should work to "break" your opponent. This is done through good conditioning and good technique. Andrew Howe had both to the greatest degree.It is not a matter of caring about another guys feelings. It is about respecting the opponent for having the courage to face the challenge that trying to be a good wrestler presents. On the cutting an opponent issue, it has its place, but I assure you it is only used at the next level if it is impossible to hold someone down. You better learn how to ride a guy if you hope to compete at the next level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 If I get three takedowns in the first 1:30, I can work a turn the last 30 seconds. What good does it do to go out and pin a guy in 30seconds if your goal is to be at the state level? Wrestling a kid you can take down 3 times in 1:30 is not a state caliber kid, so the match will not get your wrestler any better anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-train Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 beating a kid 12-7 is one thing. when the score is in the 20's and the other kid is demoralized, that is another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinwrestlersmom Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Me personally I hate to see a kid getting cut ,I mean isn't the goal to pin (or not GET pinned) ? My kid isn't going to get pinned you can call him a fish if you want but he's fighting you the whole time he's not going to his belly and stalling. I know sometimes there are the ones that will do that and I guess the only way to get the match moving is to cut them ,but I still hate to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 So a kid shouldn't work for a major decision or tech fall for team points? We teach or kids to mentally break your opponents and make them hate wrestling you. Win or lose if our opponents come off the mat saying "damn I hate wrestling that kid," we did our job. Taunting and showboating is disrespectful, but not building a lead and earning extra team points for the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood1 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I have no problem with 3 or even 4 times, but when someone does it 10 or more times then I think they have crossed the line. You may differ, and that is ok, but I do think that it can go too far. Seriously? If a guy gets taken down more than 4 times in the first period, some coach is doing a pi$$ poor job. Teach any kid a.) a decent stance, b.) how to sprawl, c.) a good hard cross face and d.) a whizzer and he should be able to fight off a takedown for more than a few seconds. Quite a stretch and I know this isn't what most of you are talking about....BUT, I know a kid this year that is a second year wrestler and absolutely sux at riding...almost instinctively he gets in front, rides to high and almost always seems to get in trouble trying to turn the guy. But he has speed and tenacity and is a very good "student" (last year all the MS coach taught him in the first year was a single, a double and an ankle pick and he ran all of them 100,000 times). So now he is a freshmen that goes out the 1st period and gets as many pts. as he can off his takedowns because a.) he hasn't mastered a pinning combination he can rely on and b.) chances are when he is on top HE is going to give up some back points along the way. The common point is that once he gets 2-3 takedowns, his opponents mind set changes tottaly. I have seen him dominate guys after a couple of takedowns because a superior wrestler who has been taken down a few times is now getting to his feet slowly, putting his hands on his knees, standing flat footed...he has given up! It's amazing how a match can be won (or kids can be mentally BEATEN) by just being able to score a takedown! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
former130 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Me personally I hate to see a kid getting cut ,I mean isn't the goal to pin (or not GET pinned) ? My kid isn't going to get pinned you can call him a fish if you want but he's fighting you the whole time he's not going to his belly and stalling. I know sometimes there are the ones that will do that and I guess the only way to get the match moving is to cut them ,but I still hate to see it. I would rather get pinned and tell people I just got caught than to get destroyed 30-15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMcMurray Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Wrestling is one of the toughest sprts in the world. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I have been cut and taken down. It really does make you a better wrestler though. I know that when I wrestle strong kids, I like to take down and cut to wear him out. Some guys can't just crank over everyone right away! Sports today are getting too soft. "Don't make your oppenent look bad!", "Don't hit the Quarterback!", "Illegal Slam!"... I'm sure i can come up with a much longer list... If you love wrestling, getting embarassed is a chance you take! I know I have been embarassed my fair share of times. Merry Christmas!, Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinwrestlersmom Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote author=Y2CJ41 link=topic=775.msg6248#msg6248 date=123013385 We teach or kids to mentally break your opponents and make them hate wrestling you. Win or lose if our opponents come off the mat saying "damn I hate wrestling that kid," we did our job. True what can I say I'm wishy washy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgray Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 what ever happened to tring new moves from top instead of tring to 15 takedowns in a match besides when you get to state i would rather see someone techfall someone hitting good ofensive moves from top then lettin someone up and it is really great when that kid gets caught and thrown and pinned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
former130 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 yea that happens alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royboy74 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 former130 - I have to totally disagree with you. Getting pinned is WAY worse than getting destroyed on points. The great thing about wrestling is that when the score is 28-15 and you are 1 takedown from getting teched you can still win by pinning your opponent, at which point who cares what the score was. I know it rarely if ever happens, but it does happen. Actually, it happened at the beast of the east tournament this year (the match is on flowrestling). At 171 that Ed Ruth kid (#1 seed from Blair Academy) was destroying an unseeded wrestler and got spladled. I think it's great. NCAA finals, I can't remember the exact match or year, but the guy was on the verge of getting teched, hits a cement mixer for the pin and wins the national title. Awesome stuff! I do think there should be more of an emphasis on mat wrestling. I mean think about the scoring system. Near fall is huge! If you can score 3 near fall points you go up by 3 points. To accomplish the same thing with takedowns means you have to cut him, take him down (2-1), cut him again, take him down again (4-2), cut him again take him down again (6-3). Seems like alot more work. That being said, sometimes you need to soften the guy up on bottom by taking it to him on your feet for a while. Like Y2 said it is much better to go into the 2nd period up 4-1 or 6-2 than it is to go into it 2-0. To the guy who said that it is bad coaching if the kid gets taken down more than 4 times in a period, then I guess you never watched Howe wrestle. I saw him take down some pretty good dudes 4 or more times in one period. I saw him go nuts on Jamal Lawrence one year he had to have at least 4 take downs in one period. He also did it to Brett Mellis and Mark Myers and I am sure the list of his victims for this category is very long. I think that the point of the original post is when a guy continues to beat up on a kid that he should be able to pin at some point it becomes classless and I have seen that happen too. Bottom line is that sometimes you gotta take your lumps before you can give them and if you can't take a whoopin', then maybe you are in the wrong sport. The thing about wrestling is that you have to use the whoopins as fuel to get yourself better. It can make you realize that you really do have alot more work to do than you thought to get where you want to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Biceps Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 I personally see nothing wrong with cutting a guy time after time after time. Andrew Howe used to do this to guys and it made them extremely tired. He would then use this to his advantage to put takedown after takedown after takedown on the board. I'd venture to say that, YES, he was looking to embarrass guys. Isn't that part of the fun of wrestling, to completely demoralize your opponent? If we are supposed to care about the other guy's feelings, then this isn't a sport I want to be a part of any longer! What you describe is punking or bullying and I believe classless. Andrew Howe is a total class act. Andrew was not and is not about embarrassing guys. Maybe it is just a poor choice of words on your part. You should work to "break" your opponent. This is done through good conditioning and good technique. Andrew Howe had both to the greatest degree.It is not a matter of caring about another guys feelings. It is about respecting the opponent for having the courage to face the challenge that trying to be a good wrestler presents. On the cutting an opponent issue, it has its place, but I assure you it is only used at the next level if it is impossible to hold someone down. You better learn how to ride a guy if you hope to compete at the next level. Somebody better tell Brent Metcalf he doesn't know how to ride and can't compete at the next level then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgray Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 by cutting someone and working on your feet only shows no improvement of top or bottom wrestling and i find it better to watch a kid ride and turn their opponent for a whole period then just tell the ref neutral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUICY Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Get as many takedowns as you can. Thats part of wrestling, but dont taunt the other wrestler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 former130 - I have to totally disagree with you. Getting pinned is WAY worse than getting destroyed on points. The great thing about wrestling is that when the score is 28-15 and you are 1 takedown from getting teched you can still win by pinning your opponent, at which point who cares what the score was. I know it rarely if ever happens, but it does happen. Actually, it happened at the beast of the east tournament this year (the match is on flowrestling). At 171 that Ed Ruth kid (#1 seed from Blair Academy) was destroying an unseeded wrestler and got spladled. I think it's great. NCAA finals, I can't remember the exact match or year, but the guy was on the verge of getting teched, hits a cement mixer for the pin and wins the national title. Awesome stuff! I do think there should be more of an emphasis on mat wrestling. I mean think about the scoring system. Near fall is huge! If you can score 3 near fall points you go up by 3 points. To accomplish the same thing with takedowns means you have to cut him, take him down (2-1), cut him again, take him down again (4-2), cut him again take him down again (6-3). Seems like alot more work. That being said, sometimes you need to soften the guy up on bottom by taking it to him on your feet for a while. Like Y2 said it is much better to go into the 2nd period up 4-1 or 6-2 than it is to go into it 2-0. To the guy who said that it is bad coaching if the kid gets taken down more than 4 times in a period, then I guess you never watched Howe wrestle. I saw him take down some pretty good dudes 4 or more times in one period. I saw him go nuts on Jamal Lawrence one year he had to have at least 4 take downs in one period. He also did it to Brett Mellis and Mark Myers and I am sure the list of his victims for this category is very long. I think that the point of the original post is when a guy continues to beat up on a kid that he should be able to pin at some point it becomes classless and I have seen that happen too. Bottom line is that sometimes you gotta take your lumps before you can give them and if you can't take a whoopin', then maybe you are in the wrong sport. The thing about wrestling is that you have to use the whoopins as fuel to get yourself better. It can make you realize that you really do have alot more work to do than you thought to get where you want to go. It is possible the reason that getting pinned can be considered worse than being destroyed on points is that you, as the losing wrestler, can make the claim that you got "caught" just like a boxer that gets knocked out. There are times when this is actually true. A better wrestler may get pinned by the lesser wrestler if he makes a mistake. He may only lose one out of ten matches. If you get destroyed on points, there is not much you can say. You didn't have any offense and your defense didn't do much either. Merry Christmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royboy74 Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Sounds like a BS excuse to me when I hear that famous "got caught" line. Rationalization. Defense Mechanism. Call it what you will. Getting pinned is the worst! I guess to me it's a pride thing. I don't see what difference it makes what the circumstances are when the pin occurs. Let me put it to you this way. If you were coaching a beginning wrestler and he got pinned his first couple of times out there, then wrestled the same kids later in the season and didn't get pinned, wouldn't that be considered progress? Even if he gets teched? I would say yes. Maybe you are right that the kid getting killed by points might only win 1 out of 10 or even 1 out of 100 . To me that would just make it hurt even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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