Galagore

10 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

Having coached at a small school, and a medium sized school I think the following are possible advantages to the small school.

More one on one focus from coaching staff.

Better chance to be varsity for four years.

Better recognition for "smaller" accomplishments- one the wall for sectional champ at small school, state placer at bigger school.

I was able to have more coaches at the smaller school.

If all of the athletic programs are solid and on the same page, the athlete is in a great strength and conditioning program year round... this is generally the same at EN as almost all of our wrestlers are 2-3 sport athletes.  

 

On the team side our teams have generally been better at EN, but at Busco it was easier to get a random kid from the hallway to fill in if we needed a weight class filled than at EN. 

Winning team state is more attainable at a small school imo , where the competition is not as dependent on having a lot of state level kids, and more on just producing a squad of 14 solid wrestlers.

 

 

 

Do you think having more one-on-one with coaches outweighs the benefit of quality practice partners? Everyone goes to RTCs and RWOs in the off season because of the quality partners they get to work with.

Do you think having a better chance at varsity outweighs the benefit of having to compete for your spot? Competing for a varsity spot is one of the things people highlight about our best programs.

If getting "on the wall" is beneficial to a wrestler, wouldn't it make more sense to give more kids the opportunity to win titles? This actually sounds like an argument in favor of classed individual tournaments.

Having more coaches is something that doesn't seem universal to the small school experience. We see schools with the same coaches at our varsity, middle school, and elementary school events. That one may have been unique to Churubusco.

Are you saying that all of the athletic programs being on the same page is more likely to happen at a small school? If so, see previous paragraph.

Winning team state is something I will have to defer to someone else, as we have never even been in the running, so it is hard for me to comment on whether it is easier or harder to win in any given division.

2 minutes ago, AndyStJ said:

Man it is hard to figure out when someone is serious and when they are joking. 

 

Like the buddy of mine who used to post that cannibalism wasn't so bad. You think you know someone.

In your defense, the lack of how obvious that is is also kinda the point. Your confusion is what he seeks, though he does not seek to confuse you personally.

2 hours ago, aoberlin said:

This isn't just a small school problem. It's a kid and what are their goals problem. They will always find something else they can be doing other than grinding if they truly aren't bought in. Not saying small schools don't have challenges because they do. But I will also say they have some benefits. 

What are the benefits for an individual who attends a small school and wants to maximize wrestling success?

59 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

It can be even worse at a big school,our baseball team cuts pretty hard and the kids they cut surprise me. If we have an athlete who is good enough to make the baseball team they very very rarely will choose wrestling. Baseball is very popular around here so they are snagging some really really good athletes.   I sometimes let my freshman do both at the end of the season because I know they probably will not make the team and come back to wrestling. I have some of my best wrestlers who love baseball so much that they hardly do any off-season so they can play travel baseball and fall ball to try to make a team they never make. All the way up to their senior year. Our football team requires so much time for athletes to make the team you hardly get to see them in the off-season.

 

IMO and I have been coaching for a long time and I have put everything I have including all my time and money into trying to turn this area and this big beast of a school around and it all comes down to culture and building that culture. If there is no culture at your school or your area that is very very hard and can sometimes feel impossible. This is why I think it is very important to build the culture up for the whole area. 

 

When I see the social media posts of firetrucks rolling through the town for State qualifiers or pictures of wrestlers over top of railroad bridges my heart aches for that stuff. This is just my opinion but I think a nice 2A school would be a great place to be coaching but that isn't where my life took me. We won Sectionals 2 years in a row and qualified all 14 to regionals and then had a ton of semi-state qualifiers. I think it made the announcements. (Maybe). 

 

The bottom line is we all have our challenges for sure. With that said I am not against class wrestling anymore since we can't get wrestlebacks and our kids deserve more opportunities. More quailfiers and wrestlebacks and I will be a happy camper.

 

 

 

What are the benefits of trying to be as competitive as possible while wrestling at a small school?

1 minute ago, AndyStJ said:

We are always going to disagree here.

You may see the lack of wrestlebacks as exciting but I see Henderson vs Haines in the ticket round, with only one of them going, as an abomination. Both wrestlers have put in the work and are the bad draws, but blind luck of the draw combined with the lack of wrestlebacks means that the question of the top 4 semistate wrestlers on the day is not even considered. And it easily could be.

Add a round of wrestlebacks to semistate and qualifying gets harder. You have to win 3 matches instead of 2 to qualify, and the third will always be against someone out of your pod who has already won 2 matches. Add wrestlebacks to the State Finals and you need to win 2 matches to place instead of 1. That is way more exciting to me. If you really want exciting, watch the blood round at Fargo or Super32 or NCAAs.

Wrestlebacks would make Indiana HS wrestling better.
 

@Y2CJ41 is making a point that the logic used to refute class wrestling can as easily be applied to wrestlebacks. He is not campaigning against wrestlebacks.

1 minute ago, MatTime said:

You are advocating on behalf of your school's athletic department, not for your individual athlete. We can not blame the athletes and their family for making a different choice. I think you would be hard pressed to find any of our 14 champions saying they didn't have to make a sacrifice to earn their title. 

 

This seems like the classic "have your cake and eat it too" situation. You want to win an individual state title but you also want to participate in other sports. You do not want to have to choose between focusing on being good at a single individual sport or playing other team sports. So instead of class/divisional wrestling, perhaps the policy should be all individual athlete's need to participate in at least one other sport in order to compete at the state series. Would that alleviate the decision making for the wrestler at a small school? Would that bring the parity that is being asked for?

 

It is a choice. 

No, it would not be something I would support.

Are you OK with there being fewer wrestling programs if the athletes at the small schools pick baseball and football over wrestling?

1 minute ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The difference is at a bigger school if a kid wants to be varsity there is a decent chance he has to give up other sports to achieve that. At a small school you can be varsity much easier and don't have to give up other sports to keep your spot. This is one of those areas where the separation starts to occur, especially at weights 150lbs and below.

You know, it all of the time discussing this it took until this post for it to hit me - that's why those weights are so tough. It's much harder to stay on the football field at a medium to large school when you weigh less than 150-160 pounds, so why not just go ahead and focus on wrestling? At a small school, there are still plenty of linemen that are that size, let alone all of the other positions.

4 minutes ago, Thor said:

This something we are coming to as a program and it's a weird situation I struggle with. The past two years the football team has started winter workouts right around the time team state starts up and goes until they start summer workouts, which pisses me off cause now I have football players struggling to finish the season because now their focus is shifting to an easier sport that they like more. But who am I to call it out when I have guys wrestling during track season, and we encourage guys to wrestle during the fall. Every program is fighting for attention for about 20-30 guys. 

Bingo. Very tough tightrope to walk.

Additionally, everyone might say that it is an individual decision is correct. My initial argument is from the perspective of the person running the program. Should I just insist that the wrestlers keep grinding all spring and fall and say who cares what that means to the other sports teams? What if the other coaches did that to wrestling?

1 minute ago, MatTime said:

This is a choice you are making. Your son participates in multiple sports for his school. That is great. But it is a choice you are making. 

 

I don't see a difference in athletes in either case. We can't blame the wrestler at any school for focusing on one sport while another athlete is making a choice to participate in several sports. Is this a loyalty issue then? Loyalty/pressure for the athlete to do multiple sports because they go to a smaller school? If they want to be multisport athletes, awesome, but the trade-off will likely be not reaching the level of performance that the athletes that focus on a single sport may achieve. There are always exceptions.

 

I wonder if Weaver from Rosseville only focused on wrestling.... That is a small school and his size would have been welcomed in many other sports. But did he choose to focus on wrestling in order to become a champ and prepare for the college level? 

You are correct. We choose to support our athletic department, not just the wrestling team. We choose to have options for our student athletes, not just say, "fall sport is football or you're out of luck; winter sport is basketball or you're out of luck; spring sport is track or you're out of luck."

If this happens to the fullest extent, then many small school athletic teams across the board will fold. My guess is wrestling would not be one of the survivors in most schools. Do you think that is an adequate sacrifice to make sure everyone knows that they need to full give themselves to the sport to have a reasonable shot at winning a state medal?

2 hours ago, TeamGarcia said:

 Next year I’m nominating my guy @Galagore for HOF for his perseverance on these Topics . About every year some rookie poster brings it up and this Galagore throws some haymakers on these  

“CLASS WRESTLING” “DIVISIONS” 

 

He’s right, only time he posts is State Time and his most popular topics being , I hate to say it. I may not like what I’m reading but …. You got my respect  

 

 

Being referred to as "this Galagore" is my favorite thing about today so far.

1 minute ago, casualwrestlingfan said:

My philosophy is why not have a classed individual tournament near the Mishawaka, Evansville, and etc time frame? Then go into team state after that, and then end the year with the current single class individual tournament. None of that tournament of champion crap where it won't guarantee a matchup happening. 

Good in theory, but as @Y2CJ41 has pointed out, has not worked in other states. Priority 1 (on this topic) is getting to an individual classed tournament. If we can swing an "ultimate tournament" of some sort, great. But we should not forego the classed individual simply because we won't have a "true champion."

1 minute ago, piscis1956 said:

It’s generally easier to make varsity at a small school I suppose.  You can participate in other sports and still make the wrestling team.

 

Not arguing your point, just offering a possible answer your last question.

Then let me rephrase my question. In what way is it more beneficial to the success of an athlete participating in a non-classed individual sport at a small school competing in the state tournament?

3 minutes ago, MatTime said:

I get what you are saying. However, this does not take into consideration the trade-off it takes to get better. Those that are wrestling year round are giving up something.

 

Seems like your argument is that there should be class/division wrestling so that smaller school athletes do not have to make a choice between wrestling or the other sports. If an athlete wants to focus on one sport, they will sacrifice the same way the wrestlers at bigger schools do. 

At a small school, this decision doesn't just affect the individual. It affects the entire athletic program. And if we wrestling coaches at small schools promote to our kids that they should focus on wrestling and with the other teams, whatever happens happens...then that's just not being a good teammate from an athletic department perspective. And even if you can convince me that it is OK to just look out for your sport, what happens if all of the wrestling kids agree with me that they should focus on being as good as possible at one sport, and that sport isn't wrestling? Answer: the wrestling team will fold and there won't be wrestling anymore at Culver Community. I don't want that for wrestling and I don't want that for any of our programs.

2 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

This isn't just a small school problem. It's a kid and what are their goals problem. They will always find something else they can be doing other than grinding if they truly aren't bought in. Not saying small schools don't have challenges because they do. But I will also say they have some benefits. 

So large schools also worry about not having a baseball team because the wrestlers are all focusing on wrestling instead of baseball (or ____ spring/fall sport)?

My son is an example I can use. He isn't "finding something else they (he) can be doing other than grinding." He is pitching and catching for the baseball team and working hard at it. He will actually be going in a week or two early to start work with the varsity baseball team before his middle school team practices fully begin. It's baseball season, so I owe it to him and the baseball team to allow him to give that season his full attention, just like he was able to give the wrestling season his full attention.

What are some of the benefits of wrestling for a small school?

15 minutes ago, MatTime said:

A lot of matches happen again at ISWA state due to it being a qualifier for Fargo. Different style but still has rematch-esque implications.

 

It is hard to win in this state. I understand the want to give more opportunities for more champions. Not having a room full of partners that create the environment to create champs is tough. But I think our HS coaches are good and bring in wrestlers for their contenders to get better. The coaches are encouraging their wrestlers to get offseason work in and to seek out competition out of state. The academies are having a huge effect on the quality of wrestling. There are programs that are going to be stacked with talent coming up in the next few seasons. Be wary of Indiana Creek, New Pal, and Noblesville. 

 

I think their is a struggle at the lower weights to get quality partners, but many schools are doing well at the higher weights. Several schools had their first champs or first placers in the last tourney. Not impossible.

 

I wonder if the issue is less about class/division wrestling and more about wanting parity in the numbers of placers and champs.

Everything you are saying is correct...however, at a small school, it is difficult in good conscience to truly push kids to wrestle to get better in the spring. They are busy making sure our baseball, softball, track, and golf teams are as competitive as possible. How would I feel if the baseball coach was leveraging the wrestlers to start tuning their arms up in January? It would p*@# me off. And of course big schools also share athletes. However, if the wrestlers at small schools focus on one sport, the other sports don't do poorly - they cease to exist. Small schools are playing a differnt game. That's why team sports are classed. There is no difference for individual sports. Everyone has to block another individual in football. Everyone has to mark another individual in soccer. You get where I am going here.

I cannot express how sad I am to be reading this thread so late.

Yes, we should absolutely have divisions. Small schools are not playing the same game large schools are and should not be competing against them in the same tournament.

We don't make the team sports do that, so making the individual sports do it makes very little sense.

You can search galagore for all of my other logic. I am too sad to post it all right now.

@KarlHungus - OG contributor and while inactive for a while, still one of the all-time leading posters

Big fan of the three point take down. Also like the 2, 3, 4 point near falls. Both have been fun to watch at the college level.

Culver Community: Matt Hurford

172-11 Career

4xConference Champ

4xSectional Champ

4xRegional Champ

3xSemi-State finalist

3xQualifier - frosh qualifier at 189, which is bonkers

5th place finish 2012

Champ 2013

Fun note: After Matt's freshman year, we were in the post-season meeting discussing goals. When we asked how he thought the season would go he said, "I hoped maybe I would qualify for regional."

Looks like more tickets have opened up. Just need some $100/night hotel rooms within walking distance to open up and I will be putting in for may day off tomorrow...

I would save 5 rows of seats for two hours or find another location and smile, wave at someone attempting to save seats for two hours if it meant we could go back to buying paper tickets with cash at the ticket booths.

2 hours ago, MountieMod said:

Does anyone know if DSLR cameras are allowed? 

6 hours ago, RAJR said:

Anybody gonna tell the "newbies" or ?

 

Kinda like reaching back on bottom…some things are best learned through experience. 

14 hours ago, julio said:

You can have class wrestling and still have a bad draw in the ticket round.  Then what would be the excuse?

Class wrestling > wrestlebacks