Honyock

The people have spoken. Thanks for all the input. President Greg Ratliff, tournament director JD Minch, and others have put their heads together and figured out proposed ways to make 20 mats work so that we can run with the idea of 8 teams in 3A and 4A and 12 teams in 1A and 2A. See the updated nitty gritty details in the original post. Cheers

If we do 4 classes with 1A and 2A having 12 teams and then 3A and 4A having 8 teams each it would probably satisfy everyone. 1A and 2A could run their own schedule(with a bye round included) and probably get done about the same exact time as 3A and 4A.
 
Boom compromise done! Just call me the great negotiator.

This just seems to be going in the wrong direction.  Isn't the goal to get the IHSAA to recognize the success of the classed team state tournament and make it a sanctioned IHSAA Team State event again but with classes? All of us who are a part of the sport recognize how great this event is and how awesome it is to find success there, but school administrators and community members who don't closely follow wrestling continue to put the * beside it since it is not IHSAA.  Example, our school's athletic recognition hall has a rule that in order to have a team picture up, you must be IHSAA Regional Champs or better.  We now have two IHSWCA team state runner-up finishes (first losers)  but you would have no idea because they don't have the IHSAA stamp of approval so, there's no photo, banner, or plaque displayed to recognize those teams.  I know this is a specific situation that probably falls more on our school having a poor policy but how great would it be to have this tournament be desirable for adoption by the IHSAA.
 
Following up to that idea.... Why are we reducing the number of teams? I get it that the numbers work with 8 teams in 4 classes which means we have to go from our current amount of 36 to 32, but that seems like taking away any teams will begin to take away fans.  Maybe the thinking is that losing 4 bottom level teams who don't bring many fans won't hurt the attendance very much? I would think that attendance numbers are significantly important to IHSAA for adopting the event ($$$) ? But then again maybe the idea is that by creating the "extra" bigger class that that might accomplish increased attendance? (someone more "in the know" might be able to provide some more input on that perspective with recent attendance numbers?).
 
Aside from attendance though, it seems like every year there is competitive teams missing the cut from our scoring system and then don't get the vote.  Then they put together a really good following season but don't have the chance to compete at team state. Maybe they wouldn't win, but going, having a good performance, and placing high continues to build that community support and recognition.  Cutting down to 8 teams with possibly only 1 vote in spot could cause some deserving strong teams to miss out and puts a whole lot of accountability into the scoring system being used, which does a good job of predicting strong teams the following year but there is exceptions every year that should be wrestling in the coliseum at the beginning of January and aren't (ex: Bluffton this year).  I thought that maybe the move for the tournament would have been to include more teams if anything (maybe not possible for a single day tournament)?  The scoring system seems to do a pretty good job at predicting top teams in the bigger classes but the smaller classes seem to be where competitive teams are left out more often.  Cutting down to eight teams for 1a and 2a seems like a sure fire way to miss deserving teams when we are already missing top teams with 12 teams being there. The IHSAA is already all about full inclusion for the state tournament series, they aren't going to be impressed by a tournament missing successful teams.  

I'm really glad these young men are seeking the best place to get their education.

That's the plan, layout is done, rankings are about 97.7% done, and the writing is about half done. We are aiming for the end of this week.

The short period between football and wrestling is not easy especially if it's a long grueling football season. I know one coach stated he lost a decent number of kids after their football team won state one year. Wrestlers going into track or baseball get a lot longer layoff between sports which helps them re energize for those seasons. 
I do agree with the timing of the season hurting, I would like to see it pushed back a couple weeks to let those kids not feel as rushed to jump into football. 

Since most of us have a snow day today, let’s talk about an inspirational story from an outside perspective. 
Elliott Rodgers of Cathedral and his rise to the top. Again, I don’t know the kid but have been following since his remarkable freshman season.
Elliott was a freshman wrestling 145 for the always tough, Cathedral team. Elliott’s record was 20-11 going into regionals, after he had just won a weak sectional. He won his first round match 7-5. Win by pin in his second match and lost in the finals 3-6. 
Elliott was NOT on anyone’s radar to punch his ticket to state. His ticket round match was Antwaun Graves of Warren Central who was 35-2 at the time and ranked high in state. Elliott drew a 17-15 kid from Carmel first round… in which he won 1-0 in a close match. Elliott then upset Graves in a 8-6 match that sent him to the state finals. But he wasn’t done yet, as he beat a North Central kid who was 33-12 at the time in the semifinals to send him to the Semi-State Championship match with a record of 25-13. Elliott was pinned by undefeated Boone Welliever in one minute. Great story right? Kid has a killer day and performs well…really well. But, is it really a Cinderella story if it happens again?
Elliott drew Corban Pollitt of Col. East first round at state. Corban was 34-12 but was part of the elite CE wrestling team. Elliott pulls out the win 5-3 and advances to the second state. Elliott then beats Mason Winner (38-4) 3-0 to advance to the semi-finals. Elliott then lost 1-4 to Jason Crary of Munster and lost by pin to Welliever for 3rdand 4th. Elliott finished his freshman season 27 wins and 15 losses and a 4thplace finish on the podium. 
No imposter syndrome for Elliott… a kid who out performed his skill level? A kid who never placed in middle school state (according to track). 
Elliott comes back for his sophomore season and wins Semi-State with a record of 35 wins and 5 losses. He took 5that the Al Smith and DNP at the IHPO.
Eliott went on to finish 2ndwith 2-1, 3-2, and 8-4 wins to eventually lose by TF to Brayton Lee in the finals. Elliott finished with 38 wins and 6 losses his sophomore year and a second place finish on the podium.
As a junior, Elliott has wins over ultra-tough wrestlers Brock Ellis and Jake Schoenegge already.. but has a loss to Eli dickens and we also seen Elliott lose his #1 ranking, sliding him to #2. 
You may never find a wrestler who has so many losses after two years who has placed 4thand 2nd. 
 
Here is a kid who can teach us adults a life lesson.. 
 
You WILL fail in life, you may fail a lot, but as long as you don’t quit and keep getting better, you will be successful. 

As the Ben Davis guy who has been around a long, long time I will try to give you a couple. Don't get me wrong, they sound like excuses and I don't like excuses much. And, none of this is personal, hopefully my comments aren't construed as being a shot at anyone. Some comments i won't make in this forum as it isn't the right forum. However, there is my list, top of my head.
1. Resources - many programs develop talent by charging their kids $ every month or kids go to a "pay to play" facility like CIA, Red Cobra, Contenders, etc... In a lot of cases, we have kids who can't afford shoes, the sport fee or don't even know where they are staying tonight. Now, add on the cost of a USA card, tournaments, etc... and that is money our families need to spend elsewhere. Sure, we fund raise, but you can't cover costs for 50+ kids in a youth program to develop them in wrestling the way we would like. By the way, very few of our kids have a great support system. I can't imagine, as a 16 year old kid trying to cut weight, get to a Saturday practice, pay for a sport fee, new shoes, etc... without any parental support
2. All of the BD families from my era and later have moved to Avon, Brownsburg, Plainfield, Danvile, etc... i.. And, no families move into Ben Davis. Everyone is heading out West over the last 15 years, ncluding my family.  I know I have coached a dozen or so kids in Junior High that have gone on to be successful at the state level in other programs. Good for those families for getting themselves into what they see as better situations personally.
3. I think BD has a remarkable amount of kids that start as Sophomores and Juniors. Sounds great to have bodies in the room, but wrestling in the MIC, Marion County and the same Sectional as Avon (you), Brownsburg and Plainfield - 90- percent of the time these kids just can't compete with someone who has had 4+ years of experience get frustrated and quit. And, how hard is it to sell this story "If you bust your butt, give everything you can you might win half of your matches" and "to be the most competitive you can, you need to learn how to eat right and maybe watch what you eat a little". They can't because they don't have quality food in the house.
4. The sport has no "middle class" anymore, there are elite wrestlers and everyone else. We all know the sport is hard - if you are getting beat up all the time it isn't fun, if it isn't fun you quit (unless you are an idiot like me and wired differently). We have a lot of great kids in this state who do well nationally. So, I am a 3rd year kid who has grown up wrestling some of the many studs on the WestSide and Marion County and I get pounded every time, I get discouraged. I get discouraged and just don't love the sport the way I need to love it to get better - I could have been a good wrestler, not elite, but good, maybe a Semi-State or even a State qualifier, but I can't get out of sectionals. I tihnk it was 2 years ago at the Avon Sectional at 106, 3 of those kids placed in the top 7 at state and I believe 3 others from MIC and Marion County placed as well.
5. I can keep going, but will conclude with this... I would rather build better young men (as I am sure we all do). It has taken me a while to admit that winning isn't as important to me as making someone successful at life (and this statement in no way makes me think that the previous 2 statements are exclusive, I am a better person, employee, boss, etc.... for being a wrestler). At some point, we are trying to get kids to graduate because we are now their parents. I could throw in a bunch of stats, but they don't change the situation. I would love to be singled out in a post about our wrestling, not the lack of our wrestling, but that isn't where we are at right now. 
Don't misinterpret any of this, I want to beat everyone. I don't want to lose. but, spend a few months inside the program and you will see it isn't just a numbers game. 
For better or worse, I am BD wrestling - as are a group of guys that I am proud to coach along side who also fight the daily battle to keep this program together and moving forward. 
Brett Nabb
BD 1987 and 20 years coaching wrestling in Wayne Township

Most parents would be disappointed, and I totally agree with DecBell on this one.  It would discourage teams to just participate in Team State if they only have a 2 match guarantee.  I think it discourages teams currently from getting a 3 match guarantee. 
  Its comes off as arrogant and elitist to only have the top teams advance, because everybody knows the top teams who will likely win  because  wrestling is pretty damn predictable ,  especially when you have Maligned applying his logarithims to it.  And its going to be the same blue blood teams who get all the coverage anyway.    So the Brownsburgs, Avons, Cathedrals, WCs, EMDs and PMs  get their press and coverage and limelight, and they dont want those other teams, that are not as well known,  taking a little bit of the attention and lime light.   KIeep in minds,  theres different expectations out their for every team in the state.
News for you MattyB,  there's  a bigger wrestling world out there.   There's programs due to the socio- economic status,  will not ever be a tier 1 team.   But these programs have goals that are different than Avon's and Brownsbug's.   These programs love taking their long shot at the big teams,  but they know the odds are stacked against them.     But they also know that,  maybe placing top 8 or top 10 or even winning a match at team state would be big deal.  Maybe they cant beat a top 5 team,  but they have a legit shot against a top 20 team.   And when you funnel down the bracket,  the matches at the top get competitive, the 7th and 8th place match is also just as competitive and 11th and 12th place could be a dynamite dual as DecBell mentioned.     It comes down to expectations,   it would be a big downer for Avon to wrestle in the 11th place match if that happened.   But, for a team that gets that rare shot to qualify for state,  they want to enjoy that moment as much as they can and prove that they can wrestle.   Besides,  if it was any other weekend,  having two top 20 wrestle would be a big thing.
Last year, my sons former high school team  made it to team state.  They normally don't go and they new they had a 0% chance of winning it as they were unseeded.  But they got there and enjoyed the 3 matches and actually won one,  and were really disappointed they didn't get their 4th match.  They brought a big crowd and got hotel rooms in FW and were into it.  And most of  all, they were  extremely disappointed at not getting a  shot  at wrestling a team in their bracket  affiliated with an administrator on Indianamat that had made some  funny and extremely colorful posts about them on Indianamat.    They could  of had  a shot if they would wrestled the 11th or 9th  place match,  and it would of been a great matchup and very good dual (IMO).
 
 
 
 

As we started this season, I reached out to some former wrestlers for words to provide to the guys who think the sport isn't for them. These were guys who weren't "wrestling first" guys. These were guys who either had to be talked into being on the team, were there specifically to prep for football, chose not to wrestle one year, etc. This particular reply stood out, and I thought the Gorilla community might enjoy it. For the record, this is from a 2013 graduate. This particular wrestler was a one time sectional champion and did not qualify for semi-state. Somehow I find that makes his words more powerful...not from a top-dog guy. From a guy who was grinding every day just getting what he could out of the sport. Almost better than this longer version is the text he sent me later when I thanked him - "It's simple though, mentally, wrestling makes all other high school sports easier."
 
The Struggle is REAL:
Wrestling at first glance seems like it’s mostly physical. I wrestled for four years and didn’t understand what it was doing for my mental development yet, so regretfully I took a year off. After a year away, luckily I enjoyed what it did for me enough physically to come back to the mat for another three years. I wish someone could snap their fingers, tell you that your hard work will be worth it, and you will just believe it.   Sorry, too bad it’s harder than that.   At first glance, it’s doesn’t seem so, but wrestling is more mentally than physically beneficial.    You know that feeling you have deep inside when you’re struggling? Just trust in yourself and know, that feeling is the first sign that you’re about to learn something new about yourself. Be conscious, have the wherewithal to push through the struggle for a solution, then take the time to reflect on what pushing through that struggle taught you, and ultimately you will have truly learned that NOTHING worth learning is easy. Each time you learn something new, it will breathe new confidence within you to go through the next struggle or barrier in your way.   Whatever you do, take the measures and have targeted objectives to get better at struggling. Break down personal barriers and do yourself a favor, use what you’ve learned to struggle for a shorter period the next time. Make the valleys shallower and the peaks higher with each learning experience.   Put in the time to learn the mental chess game that wrestling really is, and you won’t regret that decision. Learn how to strategically and more efficiently employ both your body and mind. Once you’ve learned how to tie a few good moves together, counter your opponent, and mentally grind through a full three periods, then win or lose you just took the measures to think one step ahead of the person in front of you; a skill you’ll use for the rest of your life.   Struggles will come as long as you live. Wrestling has mentally prepared me for handling trials and tribulations. I hope that you’ll have that same experience.     

The mats are here! I'll be here at 5am to kick this thing off tomorrow, can't wait.
 

I always wondered why they didn't have the sectional in the old North Gym instead of central.  It was a better venue for the fans.   I do agree moving the Evansville Sectional made more sense than moving the regional.  
I guess we can all be happy we are not Tell City and got moved from a Sectional and region 45 minutes away to a 150 mile round trip to Jeffersonville for BOTH.
 

We had a kid burn his mom's house down and he was arrested so he didn't make it to practice. Head coach still tries to convince me it was my fault because i moved practice time ahead an hour (Christmas break morning practice) and he didn't want to get out of bed so he started the house on fire. Seriously.

We had a kid burn his mom's house down and he was arrested so he didn't make it to practice. Head coach still tries to convince me it was my fault because i moved practice time ahead an hour (Christmas break morning practice) and he didn't want to get out of bed so he started the house on fire. Seriously.

We had a kid burn his mom's house down and he was arrested so he didn't make it to practice. Head coach still tries to convince me it was my fault because i moved practice time ahead an hour (Christmas break morning practice) and he didn't want to get out of bed so he started the house on fire. Seriously.

We had a kid burn his mom's house down and he was arrested so he didn't make it to practice. Head coach still tries to convince me it was my fault because i moved practice time ahead an hour (Christmas break morning practice) and he didn't want to get out of bed so he started the house on fire. Seriously.

After reviewing the many arguments, data, statistics, and other states' state tournaments, I believe class wrestling can grow the sport of wrestling in Indiana. I was initially overlooking the entire sport based upon the atmosphere of Bankers Life during the finals anticipating Red and Lee, but then I thought, "It would be awesome if a team like Prairie Heights was in contention for a state championship." The crowd eruptions I was previously pointing towards has nothing to do with us being a single class. I remember watching the 1A team fans going nuts at the IHSWCA Team State watching their teams go back and forth in wild dual meets. Small schools rarely appear in our finals, and when they do, they have the crowd behind them. I would love to see MORE small schools in the IHSAA State Finals. The argument of being THE state champion is kind of overrated and overused. I understand population is a slight factor, but we have enough depth in Indiana for talent to be spread out and for kids to wrestle great matches. I don't think a kid like Mason Parris would feel any different winning a 2A state title vs. a 3A title. Classing wrestling would grow the sport in smaller schools, see more events pop up, and it would be a regular thing in Indiana. I'm all for it.

I guess the first thing that comes to mind as I sift through these posts is "perspective."  Just who are you in relation to the issue?  Are you a coach, a grandfather of a wrestler, an ex-wrestler, a current high school wrestler?  If you are a coach, you will likely understand the dynamics of a small school better than most, as compared to a large school. (i.e. - lesser resources to work with, smaller coaching staff, fewer drill partners in the practice room, smaller gene pool of athletes to pull from, etc)  I would also caution that the vantage point of a "teacher-coach" is much, much different than that of a "lay coach."  I have been both.  I was a lay coach for 18 years before becoming a teacher for the past 10 years.  Even as a lay coach, I had no idea about the dynamics and inter-workings surrounding the students and their available resources during the school day and on the athletic field.
 
If we want to grow actual wrestling in our state, class wrestling is the way to go.  It offers fair and equitable opportunities to all who participate across the state.  We should class Indiana wrestling for the very same reasons we now class Indiana football, Indiana baseball, etc...   The days of Hickory HS and the movie Hoosiers is long gone.  Community and school dynamics have changed drastically in recent decades.  
 
Class wrestling works in Iowa, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Illinois to name just a few, and it would work tremendously in Indiana.  I don't think anyone can say that the class system has hurt wrestling in any of these other states that surround us.
 
So back to perspective...  just who should have the final say on this topic, since so many people are divided on the issue?  The fan in the stands who doesn't have a singlet on?  The IHSAA who only seems to care about money and self-preservation?  Or should the schools/teams who are the ones in the trenches have the final say-so?
 
I think this point has been made before, but I will mention it again.  If there is no use for "class anything", then let's do away with class football in Indiana.  It's 11 vs 11 right?  Them there small schools should be able to hang with Warren Central and Ben Davis on the gridiron.  While we are at it, let's do away with DI, DII and DIII classifications at the collegiate level!  Those DIII wrestlers need to quit making excuses and man up against Penn State, Oklahoma State and Iowa!  That's a fair assessment isn't it?
 
There are classifications of all kinds in our society's infrastructure in the name of "fair play."  It is time Indiana class its high school wrestling season to offer more equitable opportunities to kids from varying communities and school districts across the state and to grow the sport as a whole.  Mark my words... if we implement class wrestling, our numbers and overall strength of the sport will sky rocket across the state!
 
Coach McCormick
 
 

I used to be a one class supporter..I wrestled at a larger school and coached at a larger school.  Now I coach at a 2A school.  If you believe that a small rural school has the same advantages as a school in a highly populated area then you are either insane or have never spent time in a rural school.  You can have a competitive group of kids, but its highly unlikely you will be competitive year in and year out.  The funny thing about Hickory Hoosiers you never hear about is how did they do the year after all those kids graduated? How did they do the next 10 years? 
 
1.  Limited pool of kids to choose from
2.  Limited access to open mats and other competitors. (our closest would be :30 hour- :45 minutes away)
3.  Limited competition opportunities. 
4.  The best athletes in the school are pulled between 3 different sports. 
5.  Limited resources. 
6.  This is not a wealthy community, families cant spend hundreds of dollars to send kids to camps and trips. 
 
There are so many more disadvantages as compared to metro city schools.  These not only affect the team aspect but they also affect the individuals.  These are not excuses, these are facts. 2 years ago we win Regionals this season we send no one to Regionals. Coaching hasnt changed, size hasnt changed...the difference is a large group of seniors graduate and now we have to rebuild. If a kid quits on our team we have a ff, if a kid gets injured we have a ff.  Other schools have 30+ kids that they reload with, small schools dont have that luxury. 

Anytime I see a kid sitting the bench in football, basketball or baseball, I always ask them if they are practicing hard. If the answer is yes, I always advise them to immediately quit. The coach, the system, the man or all three are keeping them down. 
When a kid (sucker) is in a game because a "better" kid is hurt or sick, I point out that as soon as the star is healthy, the coach will show their abject lack of appreciation by landing him back on the bench. Don't be used: quit!
 
Offensive linemen are the biggest suckers of all--down in the trenches, doing the hard work so a pretty boy tailback can hog the glory. I always make a point of telling those guys to wise up and drop out.
 
Wrestling is the worst, hiding under the guise of a "fair" wreslte-off. The coach ALWAYS has his favorite and instructs his referee to call the match so that the "right" kid wins.
 
Again, parents need to be more involved. Coaches need non-stop criticism and instruction from parents so that their kid is treated fairly. That's the only possible way for change to be affected. Otherwise, kids should simply quit. If enough do this, soon, many schools would not have enough players to field a team. That would also be a great way to draw attention to a chronic problem.

"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."
(From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)   "I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint". (the Greek philosopher Hesiod, 8th century BC)   The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. (Socrates)   I definitely agree with many of the things you say, Walt.  But don't forget that difficulty with "youth of today" has been identical in one form or another for every generation in history.  It seems none of us really become responsible adults until we're a ways past the legally defined age.  Ever since I came across a few ancient quotes like the above, I've found myself being a little more gracious for the growing pains teens and 20-somethings will face without fail.

I think that making it to regional means you have a realistic shot at making it to semi-state which in turn means you have a realistic shot at making it to state.

Neal Stahly
Tell City