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Team State adds 4A UPDATE: 8-8-12-12 teams (the people have spoken)


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UPDATED JANUARY 21 WITH NEW TEAM ALLOCATIONS

 

The IHSWCA has decided on significant changes for Team State for 2020-21. Namely, a 4th class will be added and the new 4A and 3A classes will have 8 teams (while 1A and 2A continue to have 12 each). These changes will determine new qualification procedures during this year's individual tournament. Here is a summary of the specific changes and their rationale:

 

--A new 4A class will be added, which will include only schools with 2000 or more students plus the teams that have decided to compete in the largest division despite smaller enrollments.

RATIONALE: There is a very consistent, even distribution of schools across enrollments from the smallest schools up through most of the current 3A schools, at which point we see a sharp spike in enrollment among the top third of that current class. This means there is a much, much larger gap between the biggest and smallest schools in 3A, comparing with 2A and 1A. Consequently, we've seen very rare high placement at Team State outside of the biggest few schools and the two Catholic powerhouses while there is a broader range of success in the other divisions. All 4 divisions will now have roughly 2 times as many students in its largest schools compared to its smallest. 

 

--Eight (8) teams will qualify for the event in 3A and 4A.  Twelve (12) will still qualify in 1A and 2A.

RATIONALE: Much has been made about the wait periods for the big school duals at Team State between rounds with the current unbalanced system of 12 teams per class. With the change to 8 teams per class in the larger classes with slower duals, the event can move along more efficiently. In 4A and 3A, there will be two pools of 4 teams per class. Pool winners will wrestle for the championship and all other teams will wrestle a placement match based on their position in their pool. In 2A and 1A, the 5-round program will proceed as it did this season (3-team pools, 4-team placement brackets, all teams guaranteed 4 matches) with the realization that the 3-round pool matches will be completed at roughly the same time as the first two of the four rounds for 4A and 3A.

 

--Classification for 1A, 2A, and 3A will be unbalanced to allow for an equal percentage of qualifying teams per class. After the 4A schools are removed, the remaining schools with at least 7 wrestlers at sectional, will be divided so that 3A has 25% of the schools (roughly 60) and 2A and 1A have 1.5 times the number of 3A (roughly 90 each).

RATIONALE: All of 1A, 2A, and 3A will have the same percentage rate of qualifying schools. Only the very large schools will be put in a smaller group to reflect their high concentration of the best overall teams that have made up almost all of the big school top 4 finishers during the IHSWCA Team State era.

 

--Geographical qualification will be adjusted slightly in 3A and 4A. Going forward, the best 3 semi-state winning qualification scores will receive automatic bids in the big school classes. Additionally, the next 3 best scores, no matter the semi-state, will receive the next 3 automatic bids. Finally, if the 4th best semi-state winner in a given semi-state has a qualification score among the class's Top 10, they will receive the 7th bid in the class. All other bids (1 or 2 per class to fill out the field of 8 ) will be voted on according to protocols similar to the past.

RATIONALE: Preserving geographic distribution of qualifiers is important. However, there will be an increased problem with low numbers of teams at certain semi-states and a more limited field of 8 spots available per class to keep the event at its highest competition level possible. For example, there will be only 3 schools in the new 4A class in Fort Wayne, while the other sites have between 8 and 13 teams each. These new qualification procedures will allow a strong representation across classes for all semi-states and allow a fair opportunity for all semi-state winners to prove their worth without unduly punishing deserving event candidates.

 

 

Edited by maligned
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If we do 4 classes with 1A and 2A having 12 teams and then 3A and 4A having 8 teams each it would probably satisfy everyone. 1A and 2A could run their own schedule(with a bye round included) and proba

20 minutes ago, maligned said:

--Geographical qualification will be adjusted slightly. Going forward, the best 3 semi-state winning qualification scores will receive automatic bids in each class. Additionally, the next 3 best scores, no matter the semi-state, will receive the next 3 automatic bids. Finally, if the 4th best semi-state winner in a given semi-state has a qualification score among the class's Top 10, they will receive the 7th bid in the class. All other bids (1 or 2 per class to fill out the field of 8 ) will be voted on according to protocols similar to the past.

 

This shall now be referred to as the "Carroll Rule."

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Per my quick calculations this is how it would have worked for 4A this year.

 

Avon, Portage, and Chesterton would have been the only ones in the voting for the last two spots. Chesterton would have only been on the ballot for the second voting spot.

 

If Merrillville accepts their bid that then does the following.
Auto SS Bids- Mater Dei, Warren central, Merrillville
Auto Point Bids- Brownsburg, Carmel, Perry Meridian
1st Voting- Cathedral and Avon
2nd Voting- Cathedral/Avon, Penn, Portage, and Crown Point


This also doesn't factor in will teams like Roncalli, Columbus East, Mishawaka, etc bump up to the biggest class or stay with the now 3A group? If they join the fray at 4A it will make the points and voting a tad interesting.

 

School Points SS Bid
Mater Dei 249 EV Auto SS
Brownsburg 244.5 EV Auto Point
Warren Central 217.5 NC Auto SS
Carmel 210 NC Auto Point
Merrillville 206.5 ECC Declined
perry Meridian 205.5 NC Auto Point
Cathedral 205.5 NC Auto Point
Avon 196.5 EV Voting
Penn 187 ECC Auto SS
Portage 187 ECC Voting
Crown Point 184.5 ECC Declined
chesterton 177 ECC Voting 2
hamilton Southeastern 170 NC  
center Grove 168 EV  
Carroll 156 FW  
North Central 151 NC  
Jeffersonville 138 EV  
Westfield 131 NC  
Zionsville 127.5 NC  
Fishers 121 NC  
Lake Central 120 ECC  
Franklin Central 111 NC  
warsaw 110 ECC  
Lawrence North 109 NC  
homestead 101 FW  
Southport 92 NC  
noblesville 88 NC  
ben Davis 80 EV  
Lafayette Jefferson 80 ECC  
valparaiso 76 ECC  
Columbus North 60 EV  
Pike 50 EV  
Northrop 42 FW  
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10 minutes ago, WoodJC82 said:

Where would one find the list of teams this year 3A, 2A and 1A?

 

By the IHSAA enrollment numbers 4A would have 33 schools

They divide up classes after sectionals, teams with less than 7 get thrown out and then classes get divided up.

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All previous team state info is in the coaches forum

https://indianamat.com/index.php?/forums/forum/57-ihswca-coaches-forum/

 

Attached is a rough outline of who would get in based on last year's points. This isn't 100%, but would give you an idea of who would get left out.

Team State 4 Classes.xlsx

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24 minutes ago, lanntp01 said:

So, Y2 am I seeing it right that if we were using this format this year then either Bellmont or Garrett (Top 2 finishing teams in 2A) would have been left out from being voted in?

 

It looks that way to me; however, aren't the point systems different for each class? I know they are for 3A compared to 2A, but I can't remember if 2A's point system is different than 1A's. If so, maybe the comparison between last year's points and next year's system isn't that relevant. 

 

If the point systems for last year's 2A and 1A were the same, the new new 2A seems to gets tougher compared to the old system because the biggest/best 1A schools are now 2A. 

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54 minutes ago, Jcjcjc said:

 

It looks that way to me; however, aren't the point systems different for each class? I know they are for 3A compared to 2A, but I can't remember if 2A's point system is different than 1A's. If so, maybe the comparison between last year's points and next year's system isn't that relevant. 

 

If the point systems for last year's 2A and 1A were the same, the new new 2A seems to gets tougher compared to the old system because the biggest/best 1A schools are now 2A. 

You are correct the point systems are a little different between each class. You can see the differences at this link.

 

In the "new' 2A the 1A schools of Southridge, Manchester, Eastern, and Southmont would probably drop by about 20 points I'd roughly guess. Here are what it would look like if each 1A team had 20 less points. All of the teams would be eligible for both voting considerations.

 

Team Bid
Southridge Auto Ss
Culver Academies Auto Ss
Oak Hill Auto Ss
Western Auto Point
Manchester Auto Point
Norwell Auto Point
Bellmont Voting 1
West Vigo Voting 1
Edgewood Voting 1
Garrett Voting 1
Eastern (Greentown) Voting 1
Southmont Voting 1
Delta Voting 1


***Additional Info*** It looks like Southmont would likely drop from an auto ss qualification based on 2A scoring. Southridge would still be up there and likely claim their same spot. This would open up two voting spots.

 

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Based on my quick analysis.  The potential beneficiaries or winners  of this new change in policy would be the now designated  larger 3A schools with solid wrestling programs.  Say theoretically if this change went into affect last year,  and based on the rankings: schools like Hobart, WL Harrison, Franklin Community, Columbus East and Mishawka would all have had a very contending legitimate shot at the 3A title this year.  I assume Brickfor6 is excited about this change and would be rejoice at the opportunity to talk some Hobart 3A smack.   Again,  assuming no serious drop off in those programs,  these schools likely would be the contenders next year.  And they wouldn't have to compete with the Old Indiana Blue Blood gauntlet.  

 

Is Roncali also going to play the  "Were a private school and too good to be in an inferior class than 4A" because they could contend for a 3A championship?

Also,   Harrison has some talent coming back, but there window is small as they're pushing 2K, Tippy county is the fastest growing county in the state,  and they're approving a 1900 home subdivison next to the school ( which on a side note  could hurt the Scholar"s property value).  But I digress,  this would be an unforeseen opportunity for coach Henry.

 

 

    

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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14 minutes ago, Bbarcus08 said:

So basically this is just taking the 3a class and dividing it up into 2 classes and now making less 2a and 1a schools able to compete or am I wrong?

4A will consist of about 35 schools

1A, 2A, and 3A will have about 80 schools each

 

Formerly each class had about 90 schools(with about 35 ineligible due to not fielding 7 or more wrestlers at sectional.

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13 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

4A will consist of about 35 schools

1A, 2A, and 3A will have about 80 schools each

 

Formerly each class had about 90 schools(with about 35 ineligible due to not fielding 7 or more wrestlers at sectional.

 

Is this a done deal? If so, when was it decided? 

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Love the idea. Makes for a much more competitive tourney at each level, easier to run with 8 man brackets.

 Two adjustments I would like to see. 

1. Private schools are not "community based" teams and as such should be put in 4A automatically. 

2. 3A cut off at 1,800. Puts a more reasonable number of teams in 4A. 

 

I commend the committee for listening and making a change to the previous format. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Based on my quick analysis.  The potential beneficiaries or winners  of this new change in policy would be the now designated  larger 3A schools with solid wrestling programs.  Say theoretically if this change went into affect last year,  and based on the rankings: schools like Hobart, WL Harrison, Franklin Community, Columbus East and Mishawka would all have had a very contending legitimate shot at the 3A title this year.  I assume Brickfor6 is excited about this change and would be rejoice at the opportunity to talk some Hobart 3A smack.   Again,  assuming no serious drop off in those programs,  these schools likely would be the contenders next year.  And they wouldn't have to compete with the Old Indiana Blue Blood gauntlet.  

 

Is Roncali also going to play the  "Were a private school and too good to be in an inferior class than 4A" because they could contend for a 3A championship?

Also,   Harrison has some talent coming back, but there window is small as they're pushing 2K, Tippy county is the fastest growing county in the state,  and they're approving a 1900 home subdivison next to the school ( which on a side note  could hurt the Scholar"s property value).  But I digress,  this would be an unforeseen opportunity for coach Henry.

 

 

    

I’m definitely not mad about the change. We will continue to dual really TOUGH 4a schools that will push us. I am looking forward to see how this process works out. 
 

You know I love talkin smack with you Scholar...We will meet again.

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19 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

 

This also doesn't factor in will teams like Roncalli, Columbus East, Mishawaka, etc bump up to the biggest class or stay with the now 3A group? If they join the fray at 4A it will make the points and voting a tad interesting.

       

Not sure how many teams will want to bump up. There's plenty of competition in the new 3A if people dont bump:  Columbus East, Mishawaka, Roncalli, Franklin, Hobart, Mt. Vernon, WL Harrison, Castle, Bloomington South, New Palestine, Floyd Central, East Noble, Northridge, among others, are teams who have recently qualified or almost qualified in the old 3A. And it will be rare that one of these teams has that little bit extra to genuinely compete for a title against the 4A elite. Franklin's title run a few years ago and Mishawaka's very high quality level in the mid/late 2000s were impressive feats.

 

Depending on enrollment numbers and sectional forfeits, Wawasee, Leo, Jay County, Columbia City from this year's 2A Team State could be in the new 3A as well. It won't be a "junior" accomplishment if you win it or place high.

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16 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

In the "new' 2A the 1A schools of Southridge, Manchester, Eastern, and Southmont would probably drop by about 20 points I'd roughly guess. Here are what it would look like if each 1A team had 20 less points. All of the teams would be eligible for both voting considerations.

 

Team Bid
Southridge Auto Ss
Culver Academies Auto Ss
Oak Hill Auto Ss
Western Auto Point
Manchester Auto Point
Norwell Auto Point
Bellmont Voting 1
West Vigo Voting 1
Edgewood Voting 1
Garrett Voting 1
Eastern (Greentown) Voting 1
Southmont Voting 1
Delta Voting 1


***Additional Info*** It looks like Southmont would likely drop from an auto ss qualification based on 2A scoring. Southridge would still be up there and likely claim their same spot. This would open up two voting spots.

 

Close...the scoring is different enough that certain teams are affected more than others when moving classes. It would have been:

 

Semi-state auto bids: Culver Academies, Oak Hill, Southridge

Auto wildcards: Western, Norwell, Bellmont

Voting 1: West Vigo, Edgewood, Eastern (Greentown), Garrett, Jasper, Delta, Jimtown

Voting 2: Gibson Southern

 

Southmont would have earned 131 points, just behind N Montgomery in the NC semi-state race--with both outside the top 10 and outside voting consideration. Manchester would have earned 138, also just slightly outside voting consideration.

 

All told, I'm guessing that after voting 2A would have been the same as this year minus the 4 teams that would have been in 3A (Wawasee, Leo, Jay County, Columbia City) and with Southridge replacing West Vigo.

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17 hours ago, lanntp01 said:

So, Y2 am I seeing it right that if we were using this format this year then either Bellmont or Garrett (Top 2 finishing teams in 2A) would have been left out from being voted in?

This is incorrect...see the post above I just made.

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9 hours ago, Antknee said:

So what is the qualification process in terms of Advancement points? Have those changed or are they still the same?

Procedures will be released the week before sectional, but qualification scoring will be very similar. 1A and 2A will be nearly unchanged. 4A will be slightly changed from the old 3A charts. 3A will be a blending of the old 3A and 2A charts.

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The adjusted scoring for 3A will make things a little different, but the new 3A most likely would have been this last year:

 

Semi-state auto bids: Columbus East, Mishawaka, Roncalli

Automatic wildcards: Bloomington South, Mt. Vernon (Fortville), Hobart

Voting for both spots: Wawasee, Harrison (WL), Franklin

 

There's also a chance that with this year's updated scoring Northridge would have eked into the top 10 and taken the 4th available semi-state auto bid and that others would have narrowed the points gap and worked their way into the voting.

 

 

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On 1/11/2020 at 5:34 AM, maligned said:

The adjusted scoring for 3A will make things a little different, but the new 3A most likely would have been this last year:

 

Semi-state auto bids: Columbus East, Mishawaka, Roncalli

Automatic wildcards: Bloomington South, Mt. Vernon (Fortville), Hobart

Voting for both spots: Wawasee, Harrison (WL), Franklin

 

There's also a chance that with this year's updated scoring Northridge would have eked into the top 10 and taken the 4th available semi-state auto bid and that others would have narrowed the points gap and worked their way into the voting.

 

 

Maligned, these are great changes.  The overall number of teams are reduced  by a total of four, however, the quality of each division will improve.  
 

not really sure about bumping up.  I think that cathedral and MD will do so, but doesn’t that knock out  otherwise deserving 4a teams?

 

On 1/11/2020 at 5:10 AM, maligned said:

Procedures will be released the week before sectional, but qualification scoring will be very similar. 1A and 2A will be nearly unchanged. 4A will be slightly changed from the old 3A charts. 3A will be a blending of the old 3A and 2A charts.

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