QUESTION: Is GOAT Talk In Wrestling Only Centered Around Championships?

[blueandgold]

This is a topic I originally posted on the InterMat board and I wanted to bring it here. You can see the original post and responses in this link: https://intermatwrestle.com/forums/topic/4384-is-goat-talk-in-wrestling-only-centered-around-championships/#comment-147755

 

With all of the recent media coverage of Caitlin Clark in Women's Basketball and what she's done during her tenure at Iowa despite never winning an NCAA Championship, I am curious if the same kind of conversations can be held in wrestling even if they rarely are. As a Hawkeye, Caitlin Clark has been a three-time NCAA season scoring leader, named player of the year twice by three different publications, a Sullivan Award winner, Big Ten player of the year three times, first-team All-Big Ten four times, a three-time unanimous first-team All-American, and the NCAA Division I all-time leading scorer among other accolades. Despite her elite résumé, she is a two-time national runner-up. Now, I understand basketball is a team sport, but take a career like Daton Fix's into consideration; he is a five-time Big 12 champion, a four-time NCAA runner-up, a U.S. Open champion, Pan Am and Pan Am Games champion, and UWW world silver medalist while part of the Cowboys. Is he considered to be in GOAT/All-Time Great talks the same way athletes from other sports are, or is it negated due to his lack of NCAA championships? For a hypothetical, let's say a wrestler in the Big Ten won everything imaginable minus the Hodge and NCAA title (ex.: Fix), could he still be in contention with a résumé like this?

Fictional Career (For Post)

• 131-4 career record
• Four-time NCAA Finalist
• Four-time Big Ten Champion
• Three-time Most Dominant Wrestler
• Three-time Gorriaran Award
• NCAA season takedowns leader
• NCAA season escapes leader
• NCAA Division I all-time takedowns leader
• Three-time Big Ten Wrestler of the Year
• Big Ten Freshman of the Year
• NWCA All-Rookie Team

 

If this were an Indiana high school wrestler, take someone like Delaney Ruhlman, Vinny Corsaro, Tristen Tonte, or even Brandon James who are frequently mentioned amongst the greats or for a fictional example, say a wrestler won four semi-state, regional, sectional, conference, county, and holiday tournament titles but always got beat every season by the same person like a Jesse Mendez or Andrew Howe, can he still be in GOAT contention?

[maligned]

Team sports vs individual sports are very different. If you aren't winning titles eventually as an individual, you're losing matches and can't be considered the best. In team sports, you could lose games but still be clearly the best individual. 

 

I do agree that being a 4-timer or being undefeated for a career is overrated. Mason Parris losing a match as a freshman at a big guy weight or Howe losing early to a fellow all-timer shouldn't mean anything when compared to 4-timers that were at low weights and/or didn't face royalty as freshmen. 

[Indianawrestler145]

11 hours ago, blueandgold said:

This is a topic I originally posted on the InterMat board and I wanted to bring it here. You can see the original post and responses in this link: https://intermatwrestle.com/forums/topic/4384-is-goat-talk-in-wrestling-only-centered-around-championships/#comment-147755

 

With all of the recent media coverage of Caitlin Clark in Women's Basketball and what she's done during her tenure at Iowa despite never winning an NCAA Championship, I am curious if the same kind of conversations can be held in wrestling even if they rarely are. As a Hawkeye, Caitlin Clark has been a three-time NCAA season scoring leader, named player of the year twice by three different publications, a Sullivan Award winner, Big Ten player of the year three times, first-team All-Big Ten four times, a three-time unanimous first-team All-American, and the NCAA Division I all-time leading scorer among other accolades. Despite her elite résumé, she is a two-time national runner-up. Now, I understand basketball is a team sport, but take a career like Daton Fix's into consideration; he is a five-time Big 12 champion, a four-time NCAA runner-up, a U.S. Open champion, Pan Am and Pan Am Games champion, and UWW world silver medalist while part of the Cowboys. Is he considered to be in GOAT/All-Time Great talks the same way athletes from other sports are, or is it negated due to his lack of NCAA championships? For a hypothetical, let's say a wrestler in the Big Ten won everything imaginable minus the Hodge and NCAA title (ex.: Fix), could he still be in contention with a résumé like this?

Fictional Career (For Post)

• 131-4 career record
• Four-time NCAA Finalist
• Four-time Big Ten Champion
• Three-time Most Dominant Wrestler
• Three-time Gorriaran Award
• NCAA season takedowns leader
• NCAA season escapes leader
• NCAA Division I all-time takedowns leader
• Three-time Big Ten Wrestler of the Year
• Big Ten Freshman of the Year
• NWCA All-Rookie Team

 

If this were an Indiana high school wrestler, take someone like Delaney Ruhlman, Vinny Corsaro, Tristen Tonte, or even Brandon James who are frequently mentioned amongst the greats or for a fictional example, say a wrestler won four semi-state, regional, sectional, conference, county, and holiday tournament titles but always got beat every season by the same person like a Jesse Mendez or Andrew Howe, can he still be in GOAT contention?

Flo wrestling mentioned Indiana as like a “tier 2” in terms of toughest state tournaments, so, would we consider guys like Mendez and Howe and tsirtsis as like the “tier 1 goats” and these guys like Vinny and Delaney as like the upper tier 2 goats? 

[Jcjcjc]

On 4/14/2024 at 7:23 PM, blueandgold said:

This is a topic I originally posted on the InterMat board and I wanted to bring it here. You can see the original post and responses in this link: https://intermatwrestle.com/forums/topic/4384-is-goat-talk-in-wrestling-only-centered-around-championships/#comment-147755

 

With all of the recent media coverage of Caitlin Clark in Women's Basketball and what she's done during her tenure at Iowa despite never winning an NCAA Championship, I am curious if the same kind of conversations can be held in wrestling even if they rarely are. As a Hawkeye, Caitlin Clark has been a three-time NCAA season scoring leader, named player of the year twice by three different publications, a Sullivan Award winner, Big Ten player of the year three times, first-team All-Big Ten four times, a three-time unanimous first-team All-American, and the NCAA Division I all-time leading scorer among other accolades. Despite her elite résumé, she is a two-time national runner-up. Now, I understand basketball is a team sport, but take a career like Daton Fix's into consideration; he is a five-time Big 12 champion, a four-time NCAA runner-up, a U.S. Open champion, Pan Am and Pan Am Games champion, and UWW world silver medalist while part of the Cowboys. Is he considered to be in GOAT/All-Time Great talks the same way athletes from other sports are, or is it negated due to his lack of NCAA championships? For a hypothetical, let's say a wrestler in the Big Ten won everything imaginable minus the Hodge and NCAA title (ex.: Fix), could he still be in contention with a résumé like this?

Fictional Career (For Post)

• 131-4 career record
• Four-time NCAA Finalist
• Four-time Big Ten Champion
• Three-time Most Dominant Wrestler
• Three-time Gorriaran Award
• NCAA season takedowns leader
• NCAA season escapes leader
• NCAA Division I all-time takedowns leader
• Three-time Big Ten Wrestler of the Year
• Big Ten Freshman of the Year
• NWCA All-Rookie Team

 

If this were an Indiana high school wrestler, take someone like Delaney Ruhlman, Vinny Corsaro, Tristen Tonte, or even Brandon James who are frequently mentioned amongst the greats or for a fictional example, say a wrestler won four semi-state, regional, sectional, conference, county, and holiday tournament titles but always got beat every season by the same person like a Jesse Mendez or Andrew Howe, can he still be in GOAT contention?

no

[SIACfan]

In an individual sport, an individual must stand a top the podium to be the best.

 

In team sports, an individual can clearly be the best individual but not win team championships because of a lack of supporting cast members.

 

When it comes to the GOAT, even in team sports, individuals will be judged in the end by titles. But the lack of titles does not eliminate them from the discussion. In individual sports it absolutely does - IMO.

[Fabio Jr.]

In terms of greatest of all time yeah you gotta win, team sports arnt even that far off...I dont see alot of people saying Barry Sanders or Dan Marino are goats but those guys are arguably the best at their positions....the inablity to quantify success means that to make an objective statement you have to take number of top titles won in to consideration

 

[XCard]

So who is Indiana's GOAT?