aoberlin Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 1 hour ago, Galagore said: What are the benefits for an individual who attends a small school and wants to maximize wrestling success? If the high school has a wrestling culture then there are a ton of advantages. Take Bellmont, Adams Central, Garrett, and Prairie Heights for instance. None of them have issues with their numbers. I think Prairie Heights and Garrett had like 50 kids this year. On top of that, I am from Eastside High School and I know how small communities work. Most of the time you will have the same last names flowing through the school so you have a generational culture of wrestling that is huge also. Having a parent who wrestled is a big deal when the going gets tough. The reason I started wrestling is because it was the cool thing to do at Eastside in the 80's and early 90's. You don't need a room full of hammers for your wrestlers to have success. I will say you need 2 or 3 around the same weight that can push each other. Throw on top of the mindset challenges that certain demographics have or don't have that is another factor. I didn't read the whole thread but I think someone touched on it already. Here is the bottom line now for any of us. If you want your wrestler to reach the podium in Indiana you need to have an all-in wrestler that is willing to wrestle year-round with only a little bit of off time. Times have changed no matter if we like it or not. Yes, there will be some outliers here and there that don't fit this rule. Especially at the upper weights but for the most part, it is what it is. If you state that you will always share athletes with other sports because it is a small school and you don't want to takeaway from anyone's pool then 110% you are at a huge disadvantage unless your school's number 1 sport is wrestling and other coaches accept that and are okay with them possibly getting injured in a wrestling practice during their season. If your whole argument is you want divisions so kids can play other sports and still have some success at wrestling then you are correct. But that doesn't make it easier at a big school to have success. That is what you and your school system have chosen. rookie78, Disco and Indy_Martian 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamGarcia Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 7 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said: Do we know who you are ? All we know you is as Galagore . What is a Galagore, let me look it up ? Ahhhh… Dark Age Suit . Idk … lol Could be a spelling check as well, English is my 2nd language. “The” Maybe if they let me edit my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 11 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said: Could be a spelling check as well, English is my 2nd language. “The” Maybe if they let me edit my post. Galagore was actually my D&D name in high school. Yeah, I am that cool. Jam and TeamGarcia 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 (edited) 22 minutes ago, aoberlin said: If the high school has a wrestling culture then there are a ton of advantages. Take Bellmont, Adams Central, Garrett, and Prairie Heights for instance. None of them have issues with their numbers. I think Prairie Heights and Garrett had like 50 kids this year. On top of that, I am from Eastside High School and I know how small communities work. Most of the time you will have the same last names flowing through the school so you have a generational culture of wrestling that is huge also. Having a parent who wrestled is a big deal when the going gets tough. The reason I started wrestling is because it was the cool thing to do at Eastside in the 80's and early 90's. You don't need a room full of hammers for your wrestlers to have success. I will say you need 2 or 3 around the same weight that can push each other. Throw on top of the mindset challenges that certain demographics have or don't have that is another factor. I didn't read the whole thread but I think someone touched on it already. Here is the bottom line now for any of us. If you want your wrestler to reach the podium in Indiana you need to have an all-in wrestler that is willing to wrestle year-round with only a little bit of off time. Times have changed no matter if we like it or not. Yes, there will be some outliers here and there that don't fit this rule. Especially at the upper weights but for the most part, it is what it is. If you state that you will always share athletes with other sports because it is a small school and you don't want to takeaway from anyone's pool then 110% you are at a huge disadvantage unless your school's number 1 sport is wrestling and other coaches accept that and are okay with them possibly getting injured in a wrestling practice during their season. If your whole argument is you want divisions so kids can play other sports and still have some success at wrestling then you are correct. But that doesn't make it easier at a big school to have success. That is what you and your school system have chosen. So...if a wrestler is working hard enough and is giving it enough of his or her off season time, then that wrestler has an equal shot to get to the podium, regardless of school size? Then why are there so many more large school wrestlers earning medals at state? Are large school kids just all out working the small school kids? My whole argument is not wanting divisions so kids can play other sports, but that is a big pillar. And I am not sure about where you are, but in most small schools and for most kids, wrestling is the "other" sport. Therefore, it is prudent of me to respect their space, so they will respect my space. Edited March 4 by Galagore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatTime Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 4 minutes ago, Galagore said: So...if a wrestler is working hard enough and is giving it enough of his or her off season time, then that wrestler has an equal shot to get to the podium, regardless of school size? Then why are there so many more large school wrestlers earning medals at state? Are large school kids just all out working the small school kids? My whole argument is not wanting divisions so kids can play other sports, but that is a big pillar. And I am not sure about where you are, but in most small schools and for most kids, wrestling is the "other" sport. Therefore, it is prudent of me to respect their space, so they will respect my space. Then the need for class/division wrestling becomes less substantiated in this case. Why create a system that rewards part time individual sport participants? Our state system rewards the consistent wrestler who is dedicated to the sport. I imagine that only a few of the top wrestlers at each weight are competing in other sports. I don't think "class wrestling is needed to help multisport athletes get a chance at winning a title" is the argument that wins the day here. Hillbilly JIM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 1 minute ago, MatTime said: Then the need for class/division wrestling becomes less substantiated in this case. Why create a system that rewards part time individual sport participants? Our state system rewards the consistent wrestler who is dedicated to the sport. I imagine that only a few of the top wrestlers at each weight are competing in other sports. I don't think "class wrestling is needed to help multisport athletes get a chance at winning a title" is the argument that wins the day here. If that's what you took from the post I made, then I am not being clear. Here is the question I am asking: Are you saying that a large school athlete is just more likely to commit all of their time to wrestling than a small school athlete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 31 minutes ago, aoberlin said: If the high school has a wrestling culture then there are a ton of advantages. Take Bellmont, Adams Central, Garrett, and Prairie Heights for instance. What about Frankton Rushville Consolidated West Lafayette Griffith River Forest Beech Grove Gibson Southern Tri-West Hendricks Boonville Danville Community Glenn Indian Creek South Dearborn Corydon Central Jimtown Silver Creek Western Boone Lawrenceburg Sullivan Mishawaka Marian Speedway Fairfield Princeton Community South Bend St. Joseph Culver Academies Woodlan Lakeland Twin Lakes North Montgomery Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory Illiana Christian Knox Hammond Bishop Noll North Harrison Fort Wayne Bishop Luers Frankfort Mississinewa Eastbrook Fort Wayne Concordia Lutheran Greensburg Heritage Scottsburg Guerin Catholic Connersville Northwestern West Vigo Evansville Bosse Winchester Community West Central Cass Tri-Central Wes-Del Wheeler Lake Station Edison Cloverdale North Posey Northeastern South Vermillion Triton Central Madison Grant North Vermillion LaVille Northfield Greencastle Salem Manchester Parke Heritage Tri Tri-County Hagerstown Monroe Central Union City Fountain Central North White Boone Grove Brown County South Spencer Triton Clinton Prairie Forest Park Sheridan Southern Wells Churubusco Eastern (Greentown) Hebron Frontier Clinton Central Providence Cristo Rey Caston Pioneer Bremen Whitko Fremont Providence Elwood Community Pike Central Tecumseh Wabash Indiana School for the Deaf Purdue Polytechnic - Broad Ripple Daleville Riverton Parke North Newton Indianapolis Scecina Memorial North Judson-San Pierre Paoli Southwood Cambridge City Lincoln Carroll (Flora) Eastern (Pekin) Whiting Covington Clarksville Taylor What advantages do these places have? Naming 4 schools out of 200 is great, but they are the exceptions, not the norm. MUSKEEWRESTLER 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 14 minutes ago, Galagore said: So...if a wrestler is working hard enough and is giving it enough of his or her off season time, then that wrestler has an equal shot to get to the podium, regardless of school size? Then why are there so many more large school wrestlers earning medals at state? Are large school kids just all out working the small school kids? My whole argument is not wanting divisions so kids can play other sports, but that is a big pillar. And I am not sure about where you are, but in most small schools and for most kids, wrestling is the "other" sport. Therefore, it is prudent of me to respect their space, so they will respect my space. I can tell you this much I coach at a big school and I have been the head coach for 4 years and I have yet to get a qualifier or placer. It definitely hasn't been from a lack of effort on my part and the amount of opportunities that my wrestlers have. I am biased but I think our technique and approach are spot on, but obviously that part is subjective and maybe it is me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 4 minutes ago, MatTime said: Then the need for class/division wrestling becomes less substantiated in this case. Why create a system that rewards part time individual sport participants? Our state system rewards the consistent wrestler who is dedicated to the sport. I imagine that only a few of the top wrestlers at each weight are competing in other sports. I don't think "class wrestling is needed to help multisport athletes get a chance at winning a title" is the argument that wins the day here. So are you saying that a small school kid won't have to work hard for success? What is the purpose of high school based athletics in your mind? THECountyFan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 1 minute ago, aoberlin said: I can tell you this much I coach at a big school and I have been the head coach for 4 years and I have yet to get a qualifier or placer. It definitely hasn't been from a lack of effort on my part and the amount of opportunities that my wrestlers have. I am biased but I think our technique and approach are spot on, but obviously that part is subjective and maybe it is me. In no way am I questioning anyone's effort. If any of my posts indicate that I am, please direct me to them so I can review what I have written. Are you saying any wrestler who puts in the appropriate time and effort in the off season has an equal shot at state tournament success regardless of school size? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 1 minute ago, Galagore said: In no way am I questioning anyone's effort. If any of my posts indicate that I am, please direct me to them so I can review what I have written. Are you saying any wrestler who puts in the appropriate time and effort in the off season has an equal shot at state tournament success regardless of school size? Absolutely not. There are way more factors than that. What I am saying is that it can be done at a small school and it is done at small schools. Yes, your wrestlers need good practice partners. It is your job as a coach to recruit those partners and build relationships with them and their parents to get them to fully buy-in. After working for years to build numbers and make a sport cool in a place where it isn't. Here is where I currently stand. Numbers aren't everything and can be a bad thing if you don't have enough coaching staff and you aren't able to separate them into different practices. We had 50 wrestlers this year. I would much rather a smaller group of dedicated wrestlers than a bunch of kids that are trying the sport out and most of them will quit before they are seniors. I have made that clear with my team and parents so we will see how many we get next year. I just don't see this as a sport you can be halfway in. Like I tell my wrestlers it is like not fully committing to a backflip. You are going to land on your head. MatTime, Hillbilly JIM and Disco 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THECountyFan Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 21 minutes ago, Galagore said: If that's what you took from the post I made, then I am not being clear. Here is the question I am asking: Are you saying that a large school athlete is just more likely to commit all of their time to wrestling than a small school athlete? Or smaller enrollment private schools reel in the athletes that may have a lock from CP, BB, CG and them still wrestle the small school kids. Bottom line if you want to be a better wrestler you wrestle as many matches as you can in the off season and the best prevail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 29 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: What about Frankton Rushville Consolidated West Lafayette Griffith River Forest Beech Grove Gibson Southern Tri-West Hendricks Boonville Danville Community Glenn Indian Creek South Dearborn Corydon Central Jimtown Silver Creek Western Boone Lawrenceburg Sullivan Mishawaka Marian Speedway Fairfield Princeton Community South Bend St. Joseph Culver Academies Woodlan Lakeland Twin Lakes North Montgomery Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory Illiana Christian Knox Hammond Bishop Noll North Harrison Fort Wayne Bishop Luers Frankfort Mississinewa Eastbrook Fort Wayne Concordia Lutheran Greensburg Heritage Scottsburg Guerin Catholic Connersville Northwestern West Vigo Evansville Bosse Winchester Community West Central Cass Tri-Central Wes-Del Wheeler Lake Station Edison Cloverdale North Posey Northeastern South Vermillion Triton Central Madison Grant North Vermillion LaVille Northfield Greencastle Salem Manchester Parke Heritage Tri Tri-County Hagerstown Monroe Central Union City Fountain Central North White Boone Grove Brown County South Spencer Triton Clinton Prairie Forest Park Sheridan Southern Wells Churubusco Eastern (Greentown) Hebron Frontier Clinton Central Providence Cristo Rey Caston Pioneer Bremen Whitko Fremont Providence Elwood Community Pike Central Tecumseh Wabash Indiana School for the Deaf Purdue Polytechnic - Broad Ripple Daleville Riverton Parke North Newton Indianapolis Scecina Memorial North Judson-San Pierre Paoli Southwood Cambridge City Lincoln Carroll (Flora) Eastern (Pekin) Whiting Covington Clarksville Taylor What advantages do these places have? Naming 4 schools out of 200 is great, but they are the exceptions, not the norm. I named 4 in my local area that I compete against on the regular. I don't know much about the rest of the list you just copied and pasted. This simple answer is they don't have a wrestling culture at the moment. It's not easy to build and sustain. Most of these schools you will see flare up once in a while when a group of parents or a parent has been riding their group of kids since they were youth wrestlers. Once those kids graduate they fade back away. Those are just facts. Disco 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 1 hour ago, Zach Richards said: Ok, I decided to crunch some numbers ... Take it for what you will. I looked at the top 4 placers at state for the last 3 years. 14 weight classes x 4 placers x 3 years = 168 points of data. I then compared these schools to the current basketball classes, which currently has 4 classes. Now before everyone crucifies me on here, I am not suggesting that 4 classes would be the right number for wrestling. Some of the numbers that I found to be interesting ... 1. Of the 168 placers, 161 of those wrestlers (95.83%) came from a 4A or 3A school. 2. Of the 168 placers, only 2 wrestlers (0.12%) came from a 1A school. 3. Over the last 3 years, here are the 42 state champs by class ... a. 1A - 1 b. 2A - 1 c. 3A - 6 d. 4A - 34 I am counting more than 2 state champs in the last 3 years from 1A and 2A - Betz, Leech, Weaver, Fishback, Carroll. Maybe it's a difference of you using the basketball classes vs the classes that are used for the team wrestling championships. Also how many of the champs and top 4 placers are from just 3 schools - Crown Point, Brownsburg, and Center Grove (who are doing a great job of drawing the best talent in the state)? MUSKEEWRESTLER 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 2 minutes ago, THECountyFan said: Or smaller enrollment private schools reel in the athletes that may have a lock from CP, BB, CG and them still wrestle the small school kids. Bottom line if you want to be a better wrestler you wrestle as many matches as you can in the off season and the best prevail. Why have so many kids that would have attended a smaller school ended up at Crown Point, Brownsburg, or Center Grove recently? If practice partners, schedule, coaching, and other factors didn't matter they should have stayed at their small schools and been stars. piscis1956 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 8 minutes ago, aoberlin said: Absolutely not. There are way more factors than that. What I am saying is that it can be done at a small school and it is done at small schools. Yes, your wrestlers need good practice partners. It is your job as a coach to recruit those partners and build relationships with them and their parents to get them to fully buy-in. After working for years to build numbers and make a sport cool in a place where it isn't. Here is where I currently stand. Numbers aren't everything and can be a bad thing if you don't have enough coaching staff and you aren't able to separate them into different practices. We had 50 wrestlers this year. I would much rather a smaller group of dedicated wrestlers than a bunch of kids that are trying the sport out and most of them will quit before they are seniors. I have made that clear with my team and parents so we will see how many we get next year. I just don't see this as a sport you can be halfway in. Like I tell my wrestlers it is like not fully committing to a backflip. You are going to land on your head. See, this is what I am not doing. I am not insinuating that anyone is not doing their job. I know what my job is. You probably do not care for me to run down the list of things that I do to attempt to cultivate a culture and retain quality practice partners, so I won't do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 4 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: Why have so many kids that would have attended a smaller school ended up at Crown Point, Brownsburg, or Center Grove recently? If practice partners, schedule, coaching, and other factors didn't matter they should have stayed at their small schools and been stars. Why do people walk away with an expensive car from a dealership when they just went there for a base model and something reliable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Richards Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 7 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said: I am counting more than 2 state champs in the last 3 years from 1A and 2A - Betz, Leech, Weaver, Fishback, Carroll. Maybe it's a difference of you using the basketball classes vs the classes that are used for the team wrestling championships. Also how many of the champs and top 4 placers are from just 3 schools - Crown Point, Brownsburg, and Center Grove (who are doing a great job of drawing the best talent in the state)? Yes, I was just comparing to the basketball classes to try to compare to another sport. As for the 3 main schools, I believe they have 20 of the 42 individual championships over the last 3 years. Certainly don't want to take any of that accomplishment away from them. They are doing an amazing job with their programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 7 minutes ago, Galagore said: See, this is what I am not doing. I am not insinuating that anyone is not doing their job. I know what my job is. You probably do not care for me to run down the list of things that I do to attempt to cultivate a culture and retain quality practice partners, so I won't do so. I'm not bashing you at all. What I am stating is we all struggle with pretty much the same thing and it is very hard to overcome. Getting kids to fully buy-in and creating a good culture that will foster the mindset it takes. Then holding them accountable for it without them quitting. You are obviously very passionate so I would assume you are also a good coach unless you fall on the psycho side which some of us do. I am just saying big schools aren't all they are cracked up to be and we all have our battles. I am also not saying I have the answers or that I have implemented anything right. Or my post season would be lasting longer instead of sitting in the cheap seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THECountyFan Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Just now, aoberlin said: I'm not bashing you at all. What I am stating is we all struggle with pretty much the same thing and it is very hard to overcome. Getting kids to fully buy-in and creating a good culture that will foster the mindset it takes. You are obviously very passionate so I would assume you are also a good coach unless you fall on the psycho side which some of us do. I am just saying big schools aren't all they are cracked up to be and we all have our battles. Common denominator CG, CP, BB club/ feeders/ MS programs are all at the top as well. why not work from the bottom up. Very hard but proven success. Hillbilly JIM, Silence Dogood and MatTime 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 3 minutes ago, aoberlin said: I'm not bashing you at all. What I am stating is we all struggle with pretty much the same thing and it is very hard to overcome. Getting kids to fully buy-in and creating a good culture that will foster the mindset it takes. You are obviously very passionate so I would assume you are also a good coach unless you fall on the psycho side which some of us do. I am just saying big schools aren't all they are cracked up to be and we all have our battles. Do you think your logic holds for team sports as well, or only individual sports? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatTime Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 39 minutes ago, Galagore said: If that's what you took from the post I made, then I am not being clear. Here is the question I am asking: Are you saying that a large school athlete is just more likely to commit all of their time to wrestling than a small school athlete? Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood your post. I think at big schools it is way more likely to have athletes choose to focus on one sport. This is where I think there is an advantage, in a sense, at larger schools because the impact is not felt in other sports if a handful of kids decide to be single sport athletes. However, bigger school means way more competition for spots on teams. I am sure this contributes to athletes choosing one sport to focus on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 1 minute ago, Galagore said: Do you think your logic holds for team sports as well, or only individual sports? No it doesn't hold on a team sport that well. Wrestling is weird I will admit you need a good partner or coach that can wrestle you. In some individual sports, you don't need a teammate. Like running shouldn't require a bunch of other teammates to make you better. Or golf. But having a culture of success would make them better or believe they can do it. Just like being the first one in the family to graduate from college. It is always hardest for the first one to pave the path. If your question can a small school team sport beat a big school team sport like basketball or football? Not usually. The movie Hoosiers shows that it can be done and it is probably the reason for no wrestleback and no classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatTime Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 56 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: So are you saying that a small school kid won't have to work hard for success? What is the purpose of high school based athletics in your mind? Of course not. But is the small school athlete really doing everything they can when the best competitors in the state are going to multiple academy practices, getting privates, and seeking out the best competition at national tournaments during the offseason? If they are not, then why should they expect to be champions or state placers? Seems to be an issue with expectations. Train to be the best does not mean train only during the season. In my opinion, the purpose of high school athletics is to build skills, character, learn life lessons that sports teach us, and, at the highest competitive levels, prepare for college athletics. Each athlete chooses what they want out of the sports they choose to participate in. Someone made a comment about what the goal of the athlete is in the sport. If they plan to go to college on a athletic scholarship, then they are likely already one sport athletes. If they are looking to be a state placer at an individual sport, then they have to find a way to be competitive with those athletes who have higher goals. Nothing is given in the sport of wrestling. Just seems that the underlying desire for class wrestling is to lower the bar to allow for more athletes to reach success solely based on virtue of attending a small school. If the athlete at a small school has the goal of reaching the next level, then they have to choose to do the extra things that the top kids have been doing since they were young. If we adopt class wrestling and force the big schools into their own class, doesn't that make becoming a state placer/champion easier for small school wrestlers? This is the crux of the argument. Lets be honest. THECountyFan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Richards Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 I don't want my thoughts to come across as such that I want every kid to get a participation trophy. I hate participation trophies. I guess my main point that I was trying to make was that wrestling at a small school looks MUCH different than wrestling at a big school ... for a lot of different reasons. Not that one is right and one is wrong ... just different. And in my opinion, treating them as equals seems odd to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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