charger.dad Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 question - if wrestler A is performing a tilt on wrestler B and although wrestler B doesn't have either shoulder on the mat, his back is facing the mat so the ref is counting back points for wrestler A, but in the process, wrestler A puts his own back to the mat.....can/will the ref call a pin against wrestler A even though he was scoring points? wrestler B was never in control but wrestler A got sloppy and out of position...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GotDoubles69 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I am pretty sure a defensive fall can occur at any point during the match timbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero123 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 As long as both shoulders are on the mat for the two count he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling4EVER Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Yes. I have seen a defensive pin happen several times, including in a huge finals match against my brother. Some refs look for it more than others but I believe it should be called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Brown Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Yes. This was the exact situation, when I first seen a defensive pin called. My wrestler was going to TF his opponent and he relaxed on his tilt. Coach Brown 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I am pretty sure a defensive fall can occur at any point during the match I was thinking of a hypothetical situation. What would happen if a wrestler was ahead by 14 points, and he puts his opponent in a move like the spladle where is back could be exposed. He gets the five count and has the 3 near fall points accrued on the refs fingers. Then he leans back, and unwittingly pins himself for at least 2 seconds and the ref had the guts to call a defensive pin. Would they count this as a pin, since he already had the 15 points for the tech fall? Of course his coach would be really POd. But this could happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Rule 5-11-1 page 21 of the rules book defines the defensive fall. When any part of both shoulders or both scapula of EITHER wrestler are in contact with the mat for two seconds.... Tom Clark IHSAA Rules Interpreter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 Rule 5-11-1 page 21 of the rules book defines the defensive fall. When any part of both shoulders or both scapula of EITHER wrestler are in contact with the mat for two seconds.... Tom Clark IHSAA Rules Interpreter i would say that settles that.......thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Wasn't there a new rule or emphases on change in situations giving time to recover from situations. Something to the extent of giving the more aggressive wrestler the advantage. For example a defensive guy on bottom does a move that takes him to his back, the count doesn't start till the bottom guys secures him. Not sure if that is even correct, but thought it might have some ties to this subject. A few years ago we had a kid do a roll through cradle, which was like slow motion but never stopped and got called pinned. I was thinking of a hypothetical situation. What would happen if a wrestler was ahead by 14 points, and he puts his opponent in a move like the spladle where is back could be exposed. He gets the five count and has the 3 near fall points accrued on the refs fingers. Then he leans back, and unwittingly pins himself for at least 2 seconds and the ref had the guts to call a defensive pin. Would they count this as a pin, since he already had the 15 points for the tech fall? Of course his coach would be really POd. But this could happen? I would say the tech fall wins. In order for the guy spladle to be pinned there would be a change in position with would stop the match because of the tech fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 but you don't stop the match even though the points were there because the match will continue since there is a chance for a pin......so if the wrestler controlling the spladle keeps it going trying for the pin, but lays his shoulders to the mat, i would think it would be a pin according to the rule......but you wouldn't think that would be right.......grecoref, what's the answer?........how would you call it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Wasn't there a new rule or emphases on change in situations giving time to recover from situations. Something to the extent of giving the more aggressive wrestler the advantage. For example a defensive guy on bottom does a move that takes him to his back, the count doesn't start till the bottom guys secures him. Not sure if that is even correct, but thought it might have some ties to this subject. A few years ago we had a kid do a roll through cradle, which was like slow motion but never stopped and got called pinned. I would say the tech fall wins. In order for the guy spladle to be pinned there would be a change in position with would stop the match because of the tech fall. There wouldnt be a change in position, he applied the move at 14-0 and is trying to pin. As Charger Dad said, its not over until the change of postion out of the pinning combination and the nearfall points were awarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 In the hypothetical where nearfall has already been earned that puts us in a tech fall situation, that wrestler can NEVER lose except by DQ. But the match would be whistled dead if the top wrestler later is in what would normally be a defensive pin situation. In all other situations of this type, even if the defensive wrestler isn't really trying to get the fall--the defensive wrestler wins by fall. Troll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grappleapple Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Interesting that this comes up. My son was wrestling at Madison and was losing a match to a kid that was better than my son. The other kid was in control, but pulled my son on top of him. My son's face was looking upward at the lights, but he was directly on top of the wrestler in control, who had both of his shoulders on the mat for about five seconds. I said something out loud, but not so loud the officials could hear it, about that being a defensive pin. A fan from the other team just started yelling at me, telling me I know nothing about wrestling and there is no such thing as a defensive pin. Glad to see I had half an idea, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Interesting question....So the ref would stop the match as soon as the defensive wrestlers secures the pin and award the offensive the win by Tech fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 There wouldnt be a change in position, he applied the move at 14-0 and is trying to pin. As Charger Dad said, its not over until the change of postion out of the pinning combination and the nearfall points were awarded. I disagree, the points are already earned. The only reason they are held is to give the offensive guy the chance to pin, to increase his team points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randalllynch Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 If points are not awarded until after a pinning or near-fall situation is over, and a fall occurs (offensive or defensive) does the rule change if there is a defensive pin to award the offensive wrestler the points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Think of it this way, if he could get a fall after the TF-finishing points have been earned--then why couldn't a reversal or an escape or something else be earned instead? Answer: they can't. Tech falls are PERMANENT once they're earned, aside from DQ. Troll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randalllynch Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Case book page 90, section 9: The referee will not award points for a near fall until the situation is ended. A fall may occur at any time and with unorthodox hold/maneuvers. Either wrestler, regardless of the position, may be awarded a fall if the requirements are met. These are situations that take all the enjoyment out of officiating. Because maligned is also correct, it states that as well in the rule book and case book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Maligned is correct in everything he's said so far. Tech falls are permanent aside from a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Let's try it this way..... Red is ahead 14-0 and puts green on his back in a pinning combination. The referee begins his count for near fall. Once the referee counts to two, red cannot lose unless he commits an act of flagrant misconduct. The proper term is near fall earned (not awarded). Once the referee gets a two count in for the NF red has won by at least a tech fall. The referee should allow red to go for the fall. If green comes out of the pinning situation the match is over. Red could only lose of a flagrant misconduct foul. Tom Clark IHSAA Rules Interpreter Troll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 So nothing like the good old Continuation of the Move in freestyle.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 So nothing like the good old Continuation of the Move in freestyle.... You are correct....and that doesn't happen often. I will alert the media. maligned 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Let's try it this way..... Red is ahead 14-0 and puts green on his back in a pinning combination. The referee begins his count for near fall. Once the referee counts to two, red cannot lose unless he commits an act of flagrant misconduct. The proper term is near fall earned (not awarded). Once the referee gets a two count in for the NF red has won by at least a tech fall. The referee should allow red to go for the fall. If green comes out of the pinning situation the match is over. Red could only lose of a flagrant misconduct foul. Tom Clark IHSAA Rules Interpreter Now in your example is Red, Chad or someone different. Maybe his dad. And this Green person is it spelled Green or Greene.......Great example and well explained just giving you a hard time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 Let's try it this way..... Red is ahead 14-0 and puts green on his back in a pinning combination. The referee begins his count for near fall. Once the referee counts to two, red cannot lose unless he commits an act of flagrant misconduct. The proper term is near fall earned (not awarded). Once the referee gets a two count in for the NF red has won by at least a tech fall. The referee should allow red to go for the fall. If green comes out of the pinning situation the match is over. Red could only lose of a flagrant misconduct foul. Tom Clark IHSAA Rules Interpreter but what if red pins himself while trying to get the fall?.......never came out of the pinning combo but put himself on his back.......according to the case book page 90 it seems that would apply in this case....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randalllynch Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 That is why he is an interpreter : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts