El Lardo Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 First off, just introduce myself, my name is Jason and I'm a former Indiana high school wrestler who now resides out of state. I have been browsing this site off and on throughout the current wrestling season to keep up with what is going on in the sport love. I now see a subject in which I feel i must voice my opinion. so here goes... Why do you feel there should be a classified tournament in an individual sport such as this? I like the current format for several reasons: 1) Wrestling is an individual sport. One must stand alone against his opponent on the mat. It doesn't matter how many are enrolled in his school 2) A good wrestler deserves to measure his abilities against the best in his weight class regardless of the size of school he attends. 3) Indiana has a team tournament as well as individual. Whether the team tournament should be classified is clearly up for debate and is a subject for another thread but... This fact helps to illustrate that a wrestler from a smaller school has the same opportunity to win a championship as a wrestler from a larger school (see Indian Creek). 4) Statistics previously posted on this forum clearly show that individuals from smaller schools are more than capable of competing with those from larger schools on a one on one basis. ( again, look at Indian Creek) 5) The 5 largest high schools in Indiana; Carmel, Penn, Hamilton Southeastern, Warren Central,and North Central had no state champions. According to those who kept score none of these schools would have placed in the top 10 team scores were kept! The sixth largest hs in Indiana had one in Boston from Lawrence Central. This should be sufficient evidence that individuals from larger schools have no advantage over smaller ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Boston is from Lawrence North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Lardo Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Boston is from Lawrence North. I apologize, I confused the 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 No problem, I just don't want to see someone get into an intelligent debate looking not too intelligent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Lardo Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 No problem, I just don't want to see someone get into an intelligent debate looking not too intelligent. Hahaha, I guess I didn't start out too well huh? Actually on the list I'm looking at LN is #6 and LC is #10. The fact still remains that of the 10 largest HS in Indiana there was only 1 state champ. Correct me if I'm wrong but neither Portage, Lake Central, nor Ben Davis had a champion either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 look at 119 el lardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspray1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Did the bottom 10 schools have a state champ? How about the bottom 50? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Lardo Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 look at 119 el lardo Ayersman from Lake Central, My bad If he attended a small school would he still be a state champ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Lardo Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Did the bottom 10 schools have a state champ? How about the bottom 50? I don't know, but I would guess that schools with a higher population would have more chances to have a state championship caliber athlete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspray1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Well that doesn't seem fair does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Lardo Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Well that doesn't seem fair does it? Team wise yes. Individually no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger19 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 John Smith stated at a past coaches' clinic that Indiana kids get passed over in college recruiting because our state is limited to only one class. Personally, I take pride in seeing our state's products go on to compete at the next level. I think our problem is that we think that winning a state championship is the pinnacle of a career. Most state champions are setting their aspirations beyond a state championship. Take Junior Nationals, for example. It is packed with state champ after state champ. Does it mean anything that you draw a class A state champ from Iowa in round 1 and a class AAA state champ from Oklahoma in round 2? It only matters who you beat and who beats you. Another aspect to consider is that the wrestling community is in a constant battle with the rest of society to build the sport. Look what success does for a small school's support of wrestling. Wouldn't it be nice to see large crowds (like EMD) from more schools? There are often small school athletes doing well at the state level, but it only stands to reason that larger schools have more competition for varsity spots; therefore, via competition they should produce better rosters consistently over a long period of time. It's athletic Darwinism (survival of the fittest). How about transfers? If more schools could provide avenues for success, maybe we wouldn't see over zealous parents uprooting their kids to go to traditional powers. Some of the most storied wrestling communities in other states are tied to small schools. Would that have happened if there weren't greater chances for success due to competing on a level playing field? Who knows, but you could make an argument that their sustained excellence would have been harder to come by. Lastly, most of the people who are hardliners on single-class wrestling were not one of the 16 kids in their weight classes to make state when they were in high school. Maybe if there were multiple classes available, they would have advanced past sectionals and been happier with their careers. Heck, look at the "old" days. There were 4 wrestlers to make it to state each year, with no wrestle-backs. No one can argue that wrestling isn't better off now with more state placers and the chance to wrestle-back. The bottom line is that more state champions equates to more college wrestlers from the state, more interest in the sport, and higher attendance at events. What's wrong with aspiring to these goals for Indiana wrestling? P.S. Whether Indian goes to class wrestling at some point in the future is not nearly as important as restoring the team score at Individual State (without giving up Team State). The IHSAA needs to bite the bullet and pay for more medals and trophies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matts Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Hahaha, I guess I didn't start out too well huh? Actually on the list I'm looking at LN is #6 and LC is #10. The fact still remains that of the 10 largest HS in Indiana there was only 1 state champ. Correct me if I'm wrong but neither Portage, Lake Central, nor Ben Davis had a champion either. If you look at the IHSAA site for enrollment and consider the big picture one gets a very different view of how well big schools do in the individual tournament... If one looks at the schools with multiple state champions, there are very few small schools. In fact, if one considers schools with more than five state champs in their history, there are all of two small schools- and only one is public (Beech Grove). The other is obviously EMD which isn't really all that small a school. In fact, the ten biggest schools combine for 102 state champions in their history. I used the IHSAA basketball enrollment for classifications for 2007-2011. Im sure some enrollments have flipped around, but it paints a very clear picture that big schools win most of the titles. I will venture that the 102 smallest schools in Indiana do not have ten state champs between them, but I will have to check that out when I have more time. You can see the list here: http://www.ihsaa.org/dnn/Sports/Boys/Wrestling/StateFinalsRecords/tabid/321/Default.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstemv81 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Doesn't matter. The state titles those Indian Creek wrestlers won under the lights will be remembered for years to come. Class titles? Uh, no. No amount of social engineering can alter what's real. The kids aren't stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralsDad Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I think people understand that bigger schools with more kids will win more championships. Those for classes say that is unfair, but I think it exactly what should be expected and is acceptable. The bigger the population, the more chances to win. Should we start classing the lottery also so rural communities have as many winners as large city residents? The part I love is that sometimes small schools win a championship. It means more to me to see people overcome odds than to watch kids in weak weight classes win state championships so they can wrestle at division 3 colleges, which they could have wrestled at anyway. I think it means more to the kids from small schools to win a one class championship also, and they understand that getting to semi-state is still pretty good in a one class system if they don't make it to state. I was reading the thread the other day about the kid who wouldn't wrestle the girl at state in Iowa. They said that the kid was in class A in Iowa and that there was 1 qualifying tournament where they had to place in the top 2 spots out of 8 kids to make it to state. I threw up in my mouth a little when I read that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMAWRESTLER Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Y2 do the kids in New Jersey get over looked by college coaches? What about the kids in Cali? I'm pretty sure that recruiters know who the good prospects are regardless of classing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstemv81 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 The John Smith quote above deserves a response. I'm not one to question Coach Smith but will do so anyway. As the coach of a Division I powerhouse like Oklahoma State, he isn't recruiting anybody who isn't at least a 2x state champion from a single class state, or a 4x from a classed state. The last time Oklahoma State recruited in Indiana, they got Steven Bradley, 3x state champ from Beech Grove (and 4x placer). Coach Smith says kids are getting overlooked in Indiana. The question is: who? What kid, this year, is going to get overlooked by Div. II schools because they never made it to state in our single class? I think the answer is nobody. These small college scouts have to know what they're doing; they're savvy, and know where to go and where to look to find the kids that might be interested in their programs. In the late 90s I went to the Evansville Semi-State, and while standing in line for tickets, next to me were two individuals wearing shirts from a small college in Illinois I'd never heard of. I asked them what brings them to Indiana and they said were scouting! Now, why would they make the field trip to one of our semi-states when they can be looking at all the Class A (small school) prospects in Illinois? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 There was also a young man that was a one time state qualifier from a pretty small school. He didn't get any attention from colleges since he was a one time qualifier so he thought his career was done. He ended up taking a year off and working for his dad, then got the itch again and walked on at Indianapolis. He went on to be a two-time NCAA runner-up. Maybe if he would have been a couple time qualifier and maybe one time placer at a small school division he would have gotten a lot more attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Y2 do the kids in New Jersey get over looked by college coaches? What about the kids in Cali? I'm pretty sure that recruiters know who the good prospects are regardless of classing. I counter your pair with five classed: IL, NY, OH, IA, OK, and PA. Depends on what side of the girls wrestling fence you are on, but a classed system would certainly allow more opportunity for girls wrestling. The entire argument for class wrestling boils down, in my opinion, to the selfishness of the fan (nothing wrong with fans wanting what they want) versus the need/desire to grow the sport. If you can cut out the emotional tie to needing the "one true champion" per weight class, classing starts to make more sense if you believe that it will increase involvement in the sport. That leaves us with the love of the one true champion versus the hope for more participation and growth. Love and hope, what more could you ask for in a debate. The future of mankind hangs in the balance. It is such an interesting argument because there is so much emotion and so little fact involved. You have two religions: the True Champion Wrestling Fundamentalist and the Multi-class New Age Church It depends on your belief system and your goals for the sport as to which you will support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theckman Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 So if he'd been a one-time qualifier in a multi-class state, he would have gotten more attention? I hardly think so. In a multi-class state, would he have been more than a one-time qualifier? Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure taking a year off made the young man more mature and more focused. You can't say with an validity that if there were multiple classes in Indiana he would have gotten more attention. There can be as many examples on one side as there is the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 So if he'd been a one-time qualifier in a multi-class state, he would have gotten more attention? I hardly think so. In a multi-class state, would he have been more than a one-time qualifier? Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure taking a year off made the young man more mature and more focused. You can't say with an validity that if there were multiple classes in Indiana he would have gotten more attention. There can be as many examples on one side as there is the other. He would have probably been a two time qualifier and probably one time placer in a two classed system. That is based on who was in his weight those two years. That would have made a HUGE difference in him getting noticed by college coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Y2 do the kids in New Jersey get over looked by college coaches? What about the kids in Cali? I'm pretty sure that recruiters know who the good prospects are regardless of classing. New Jersey does not have the disparity between classes due to having very few really small schools and very few mega schools like Indiana. They also allow for 24 state qualifiers in their system, which equates to almost 2% more than Indiana allows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theckman Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 He would have probably been a two time qualifier and probably one time placer in a two classed system. That is based on who was in his weight those two years. That would have made a HUGE difference in him getting noticed by college coaches. Sorry..."probably" doesn't cut it. That's like me saying he probably would have sustained an injury or he probably would have gotten caught in a head lock and stuck. I can back up my probablys just as easy as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Sorry..."probably" doesn't cut it. That's like me saying he probably would have sustained an injury or he probably would have gotten caught in a head lock and stuck. I can back up my probablys just as easy as you can. Since each weight class at state usually has about 4 state qualifiers from small schools, then it is pretty reasonable to suggest that a kid from a small school would place at state if there were two classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMAWRESTLER Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 The fact is that Indiana was pretty far behind the power states not because of class. Its because of the types of extra training facilities that were available in our state. Up until about 6 years ago there wasn't any place to train outside of your school. Now we have several opportunities in all parts of the state, and in my opinion the kids comings into high school now are better and are competing well with other states. How can you argue with this Y2 (previously posted by Drooke) http://news.theopenmat.com/2011/02/classless-in-indiana/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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