Ineptitude of Some HS Coaches Means Inability To Properly Seed a Tournament

[Oscar]

I understand what you are saying but there is no denying strong opposition when you wrestle the best programs in the state week in and week out( minus just a few). Knowledge of the sport and who you are competing against really isn't subjective if you are really being honest and you follow the sport they way you should as a coach.  You can't really say at a  seeding meeting that the 16 of the top 20 teams that you wrestled doesn't mean much because it's just rankings. The rankings are based off results.  It's something that should not be denied in order to gain an unfair advantage for your kids. Just how I feel.

??? ??? ???  Unfair Advantage?? Isn't that what seeding meetings are suppose to eliminate? A certain amount of rankings is arbitrary because not everyone participates in that process. That is why I tell my kids never underestimate your opponent and respect everyone you face. I understand a coaches need for his kid to avoid certain kids early for a multitude of reasons and I think this is what you are trying to do as a good coach. On the other side,though this is what makes  seeding meetings too tedious forcing directors to move them along with more straight forward criteria.

[indyt]

Growing up in Marion County, I have some very memorable moments of the Marion County seeding meeting. Classics with some all time great coaches involved. Man they could  put the screws to each other. Actually it is much better and more civil now. My only issue is not considering the opposition. It shows every year when we seed someone who just isn't as good as the kid who had to wrestle the tougher schedule. Plus our ADs wont let us seed 8. It is the best way to do it. It really makes things go faster and smoother when we seed 8. Coaches are not fighting tooth and nail for 6 th.

[ccbig]

I've always said that the excuse that it takes a lot of time and financial investment to get all the coaches together--only to have an imperfect process--is a bit of a cop out.  Very simple criteria could be used that would at least separate some of the top kids so a potential placer isn't out after 2 rounds and a championship match doesn't happen in the round of 16.  Try this for example:

 

1.Highest career placement at state finals

2.Qualification for state finals in career

3.Quarterfinals appearance at semi-state

4.Qualification for semi-state in career

5.Highest career placement at Connersville (at least Top 8)

6.Best winning percentage (at least 5 actual matches)

 

This would not be a perfect system by any means, but it would take almost no time for coaches to fill out info sheets including only these 6 items.  And it would take very little time to sort through and seed kids accordingly--again, to at least separate some of the clearly stronger kids.

 

The only real problem with this is that some semi state areas and even some conferences may have stacked numbers of quality wrestlers at a given weight. I have seen a number of wrestlers who went to the state tourney from areas in the state that were weak in that weight. I have seen SSQ win against SQ from those weaker areas.

 

That is why the toughness of opponents and common opponents are also so important in seeding.

[ekocottonball]

Having sat in the Al Smith seating meeting many times, my opinion is:

1- Many of the best programs don't think it's worth the fight for the top seed, just "a seed."  The tournament is so tough no matter where you land in the bracket, you are going to have a series of challenging matches.  Schools like Bellmont, Penn and Mish. who have been at the Al Smith forever, know its how you wrestle on the mat that really matters.  Even though these schools have the most seeded wrestlers, they are the easiest folks to deal with at the meeting because they do not care about seeds, but rather winning.

2- There are a lot of what I call "one-guy" coaches. These are coaches with only 1 or 2 guys on their team who can actually place.  These coaches sometimes become over emotional about the kid's seed, because that's all they got.

3- There are plenty of coaches who hold wrestlers out of tough matches prior to the Al Smith in order to enhance seeding.  There is one South Bend school in particular that is notorious for this.  They have wrestlers who should be 9-4, but because the coach holds them out of tough matches, the wrestler comes in 9-0.

4- Disappointingly, strength of schedule has been given little creedance in seeding.  Instead, record is often viewed as the top criterion. 

[ekocottonball]

I say "good move" by Derrick Snyder allowing Y2, Rankingsguy and Karl to be present.

[ccbig]

Having sat in the Al Smith seating meeting many times, my opinion is:

4- Disappointingly, strength of schedule has been given little creedance in seeding.  Instead, record is often viewed as the top criterion.   

 

That's a bummer to hear.

 

I say "good move" by Derrick Snyder allowing Y2, Rankingsguy and Karl to be present.

 

I agree. It will be interesting to see/hear the outcome.

[Y2CJ41]

He pays us because we are so cool to hang with.  I think he even offered to buy us lunch at Between the Buns.

[SlickRodz]

Some of them have seeded a "ringer" for a "ringer"....

 

Can someone tell Slickrodz that the perferred nomenclature is a "seed"  not a "seat" 

 

 

 

Note taken, I did know this....mental laps! HA

[Y2CJ41]

Note taken, I did know this....mental laps! HA

Lapse

[SlickRodz]

Lapse

 

Thats why I put the HA, get it!!!

[mtv2112]

question:

why is it bad that a coach fights for his wrestler, and usually just adheres to criteria so that his wrestler gets the best draw and opportunity... when did it become a coaches job to make sure the fans get a classic match.. shouldnt he be concerned about his wrestlers and not anyone else?  somethings may be shady, but if they are fighting for their wrestler then they are doing their job... as long as they do not cross a line and lie!

 

answer:

it is only bad when it conflicts with another person's view of what is good . . . it is not the coaches job to make sure fans get a good match . . . that is the job of the tournament director . . . much like a boxing or mma promotor

 

Seems to me that this problem could go either way.  You have the situation where criteria are not followed, coaches lie, cheat, misrepresent, dodge, etc. in order to get the best seed for their wrestler.  This certainly has/can/will throw off the quality of a tournament finals.  On the opposite side, you can concentrate the power in the hands of the few (say a tournament director or some crack team of wrestling know-it-alls).  Now you get seeding that is based upon the view of the few.  If they are correct then you might have a good tournament.  If they are not correct, then you get the same type of match making you had before.  Errors from this scenario could happen if the small group/director has regional bias (not bias against/for the Region), doesn't like a particular team/coach/wrestler, or any other manner of prejudice against others.

 

Now I am not saying that anyone involved with any of these tournaments would do that.  I am sure most coaches, tournament directors, RG, AJ, Y2, et. al. are all competent and have the best interests of wrestling more or less at the forefront of their thoughts and ideas.  However, I can see where blind draws are attractive to some folks.  There are no arguments, no blaming, no lies, cheats, etc.  Let the seeds fall where they may and let the wrestlers sort it all out.  

 

[wrestler60160]

Thats why I put the HA, get it!!!

 

Ignore them Slick, (thar)  from the North....... ;D

[maligned]

The only real problem with this is that some semi state areas and even some conferences may have stacked numbers of quality wrestlers at a given weight. I have seen a number of wrestlers who went to the state tourney from areas in the state that were weak in that weight. I have seen SSQ win against SQ from those weaker areas.

 

That is why the toughness of opponents and common opponents are also so important in seeding.

 

Obviously the components I listed are very inadequate alone.  I'm only saying that at Connersville, it would be a simple way to move the clearly good kids to different areas of the bracket without a coaches' meeting--not saying it's effective at getting everyone perfectly where they belong.

[awood2]

Let's do it like the Charger Invite (Elkhart Memorial) and do the whole thing round robin!@#$%^&*  What's the point of having a tournament on Christmas break if it only takes 2 days out of the 2 weeks 

[ccbig]

Let's do it like the Charger Invite (Elkhart Memorial) and do the whole thing round robin!@#$%^&*  What's the point of having a tournament on Christmas break if it only takes 2 days out of the 2 weeks 

 

Round robin is the truly best format when time allows IMO.

 

Next in line would be almost any format that included 2 losses and you are out starting at round 1. This is the general format used at most national events. I like this format because quality wrestlers can still advance even after "getting stuck" or being placed on the loaded side of a bracket.