Ideas to save team state

[KarlHungus]

So you are convinced that you can convince him.  I really dont know this info but have you sat in on any meetings with Bobby or Blake?  Just want to know what you know about them.

 

I am not convinced I could convince them.  I have heard that Blake Ress has always been against the classing of wrestling,  I have not heard the same about Bobby Cox.  But I am convinced that proposing a 3 class team state and individual state with some financial particulars from other states of similar size is far more persuasive trying to convince him how important the single team state tournament is for wrestling in Indiana.

 

  This is the key?  Nothing changes if he does not want it to and He does not understand  much about things we see as important.

 

He being Blake or Bobby?  I don't think Blake Ress will be at the next meeting.

 

I am not sure we (coaches) agree on what is important.  The present single class team tournament is very important to Perry Meridian and Mishawaka for example but not so important for Sheridan or Eastern Hancock.

 

The coach's association president sees classing the team and individual as important yet is not willing to propose anything dealing with class at the next meeting. 

 

90% of coaches (who responded) felt classing at least the team side was important 7 years ago yet the association chose not to propose. 

 

Yes, I agree, money talks.  But at the expense of more work without knowing the particulars, maybe, maybe not.  It would be easier for them to say, no.  What are his thoughts on class?  Has any of our past leaders had this conersation with him?  I would like to know myself?  What are we dealing with?

 

The kind of money Wisconsin makes would speak very loudly.  The IHSAA is saying no to the single class team state tournament right now primarily but not totally because of financial reasons.  I agree that there would have to be a lot more particulars figured out but simply proposing we keep the status quo does not seem like the way to go to me.

 

 

[KarlHungus]

Save it. Class it.  In that order.   

 

Is that a realistic goal?  I admire your tenacity with wanting to save it first and would do the same if I were in your position but my interpretation of events tells me that team state in its present format is done and we should look at long term solutions right now. 

 

Has anyone proposed running the team state finals the same weekend as individuals when there is a captive audience in Indianapolis?  I know I can't attend the team state now because I am running a middle school tournament as are the other high school coaches at my school.

[indyt]

I have thought of the tournaments running at same time as I posted about minn. doing it.  The only problem is in order to do it you would have to get out of school.  They start on thursday I think.  Maybe friday, but they are out of school for a full day.  And yes, from what I have been told its a three ring circus of excitement.

 

I do want to know where you get your info on the tournament being dead.  I also want to know who has talked to the powers above.  My AD says different.  I need to know what you know and how so that I dont sound stupid when I approach my AD or when I talk to Bobby himself.  If someone is holding out info it would be a good idea to get it out there.  Too many conflicting reports.  And, if you have no concrete info other than you heard, why say it.  Lets get the facts.  What does the IHSAA think about class wrestling.  I know they have been asked?  What are they saying about team state that is not in the Regional reports that my AD read and who are they saying them to?

[KarlHungus]

Jim,

 

Check your comcast email.  I sent it earlier this morning.  That combined with what my AD has told me is why I am saying what I am saying.  Granted it was what I heard from my AD but I have worked with him for 14 years so I have built a solid trust in what he tells me.

[PreparetoWin]

I dont know if anyone knows for sure where the mindset of Bobby is right now.  Maybe the first step might be to ask? Tonte, maybe thats the phone conversation you should have? Then ask if the coaches assoc could put together a short term plan to get attendance up for the next year or two, would they consider listening to a longer term plan to class team state and further increase revenue and attendance? I have no information to back this up, but I would think they would be hard pressed to eliminate anything that brings in an increased amount of money...even if it has been down the past 3-4 years.  If we were to double or triple attendance and revenue, I would think they would at least listen a little more intently and have a harder time saying "no".  Maybe after a conversation with the powers that be, we find out no matter what happens team state is dead, then we have to adjust plans and ideas to have them consider an alternative, being classed team state.  There are alot of good minds out there, surely we can put this together and come up with a couple of proposals.  I have always found in business that if you go to someone with a few good ideas, you have a better chance of getting one of them through rather than if you have one idea and the only other option is "no".  That is more of an ultimatum than a proposal.  In saying that, we show a few ideas to make the current system once again viable and profitable and at the same time show some ideas to further the growth of team state.  I think a couple of small school coaches and larger school coaches should comprise a group to specifically focus on this problem.

[Darrick Snyder]

People we have to be united if we are going to succeed.

 

Lots of things can be debated regarding our sport and the direction of our sport, but once again I ask:

 

DOES ANYONE NOT THINK A CLASSED TEAM STATE WOULD BE A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?  ANYONE?

 

I am not asking about what you would rather have?  Not asking about wrestlebacks or classing the indivdual?  I am asking if ANYONE thinks a classed team state would not be a positive change?  ANYONE???

 

It was a unanimous vote a the IHSWSCA Fall Clinic.  Everyone agreed it would be a great and positive change for Indiana Wrestling to go to a classed team State.  So why not fight for it?  Are there are other things we want?  Sure....but how does it makes sense to say classed team state would be a positive change, but I would rather have something else so screw team state and the idea of classing.

 

I exchanged emails with Bobby Cox - Team State is on VERY thin ice, but it is NOT a done deal.  That is coming from the head man so lets stop spreading rumors, etc.  We have a chance, but NOT if don't come together!

 

Darrick Snyder

[Cale Hoover]

I try to stay off this message board for the most part, but I have some concern over some items I have read.

 

I get disappointed when people talk but are not willing to follow it up with action. 

 

I try to be very thoughtful and precise with everything I say and write.  I want to be honest, transparent, and paint an appropriate picture. 

 

I will not be making a major proposal of class wrestling at this point because the answer would be no.  We must know ahead of time how the committee will vote. 

 

In order to make this type of proposal I would need at least the following (and probably more with more time to think):

 

1.  a new venue (we won't get a venue for what they IHSAA pays to rent our gym at Center Grove)

2.  a new qualifcation system

3.  Costs involved (officials, transportation, awards)

4.  IHSAA man hours invovled in making these changes happen

 

For example, the IHSAA does not want to expand the field to 16 teams because it doubles the amount of their reimbursements.  These get quite expensive.

[KarlHungus]

People we have to be united if we are going to succeed.

 

Lots of things can be debated regarding our sport and the direction of our sport, but once again I ask:

 

DOES ANYONE NOT THINK A CLASSED TEAM STATE WOULD BE A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?  ANYONE?

 

There have been a couple of posters on this thread that do not want a classed team state.  I am not one of them.  But when the president of the coaches association (who supports classing the team and individual) says he will not propose anything related to class that means we have until 2013 before any change is made.

 

I am not asking about what you would rather have?  Not asking about wrestlebacks or classing the indivdual?  I am asking if ANYONE thinks a classed team state would not be a positive change?  ANYONE???

 

See above.

 

It was a unanimous vote a the IHSWSCA Fall Clinic.  Everyone agreed it would be a great and positive change for Indiana Wrestling to go to a classed team State.  So why not fight for it?  Are there are other things we want?  Sure....but how does it makes sense to say classed team state would be a positive change, but I would rather have something else so screw team state and the idea of classing.

 

I don't see anyone saying this.

 

I exchanged emails with Bobby Cox - Team State is on VERY thin ice, but it is NOT a done deal.  That is coming from the head man so lets stop spreading rumors, etc.  We have a chance, but NOT if don't come together!

 

I have consistently said it was my opinion that team state as we presently have is done.  That is based on the combination of information from Bobby Cox and my AD.  If you choose to see this as spreading rumors, so be it, but I think of it as facing reality.  I see this going one of three ways:

 

1)  The one class team state is miraculously saved.  The status quo is preserved and there will be no push to class either team or individual from the wrestling leadership.

 

or.

 

2) Team state is gone.  Nothing new is proposed except the status quo.  Wrestling fans gnash their teeth and curse Bobby Cox about how he doesn't understand wrestling along with wishing we would have proposed class wrestling.

 

or

 

3) The one class team state is gone and replaced by a classed team state NEXT YEAR because wrestling leaders propose (THIS SPRING) a well thought out plan of action complete with financial numbers and examples from other states.  The proposal so impresses the IHSAA with both the increased revenue and increased participation that they overwhelmingly approve it and ask the association to look into classing the individual side too.

 

 

[Cale Hoover]

If you have a well thought out proposal with numbers I would love to see it.

 

email me at :

 

hooverc1@centergrove.k12.in.us

 

[Y2CJ41]

Cale,

What are the things you think the IHSAA wants/likes?  I know I have heard that they would like to have a three week tournament instead of four, but beyond that I am not sure.

[Cale Hoover]

They have never mentioned a 3 week tournament to me.

 

If you want my honest answer I will give it, but the IHSAA is not very forthright with information.

 

I think they want to go back to where we had the individual tournament with no wrestlebacks.  They will not come out and say why, but they were ok with the team tournament as long as it was profitable.

 

I know they are not looking to expand class sports to "individual sports" which is what we are still labeled.

 

[tspray1]

 

 

I sent a few ideas that work real well up here in Wisconsin to Coach Tonte.

 

Below is something that I posted yesterday.  I still feel that its about money, that is the reason the merged sectionals a few years back.  They had sectionals that were losing money and they wanted that fixed.

 

We have to show them a way to make it worth it, they have to see the $$ value to them.

 

classing the team side is a great way to start. It will entail a lot of work, and require a true dual meet sectional. It can be done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once again .. Don't want this to get lost in the shuffle.

 

 

Why not start from scratch and go in and propose both Class for Team and Individual.  If you don't I fear that you will be fighting this same fight in 5 years.

 

Here is some info to chew on  State of Wisconsin is similar in size to Indiana in population and school numbers.

 

They have 3 classes, and their Individual state tournament goes on for 3 weeks (Indiana likes the 3 week idea)  They go Regional, Sectional and State.  With Team state 1 week after the Individual state for a total of 4 weeks.

 

You qualify for the Team Sectional by winning your Individual Regional's.  

 

There are 16 Regionals in Division 1,  16 Regionals in Div 2, and finally 16 Regionals in Div 3.  

 

The winners in Div 1 move on to 8 Sectionals with the winner of those sectional moving on to state for a grand total of 8 D1 Teams at state.

 

Div 2 has 16 Winners moving on to 4 Different Sectionals, (they will wrestle 2 dual meets on a Tuesday night to move on to State for a grand total of 4 D2 Teams going to state.

 

Div 3 is the same setup as Div 2.

 

 

State money figures from last year in Wisconsin

 

Individual Regional (all classes) $77,867

Individual Sectional (all classes) $104,804

Individual State (all classes) $489,526

 

Team Sectionals (all classes) $29,864

Team State (all classes) $60,049

 

I have tons more information that I dont care to type atm but if you have questions you can post them or pm me..

[KarlHungus]

I get disappointed when people talk but are not willing to follow it up with action. 

 

Since I feel this is directed at me.  I will say that when I was a member of the association I traveled to Indy on my own dime under the assumption that I would be meeting with you to discuss ideas to improve the association and wrestling in general.  I prepared an outline with items to discuss.  What resulted was a 10-15 minute discussion on the floor of the hog barn at the fair grounds.  No follow up was quite disappointing as I offered to help however I could be used.

 

I will not be making a major proposal of class wrestling at this point because the answer would be no.  We must know ahead of time how the committee will vote. 

 

In your 11/9 IHSWCA update you state that " I would be supportive of both a classed team and individual tournament.  I know this is controversial, but in my opinion this would be the greatest boost in growth and interest we could ever give wrestling in our state."

 

If you truly feel that way, why aren't we trying to get this done?  Otherwise, aren't they just hollow words?

 

In order to make this type of proposal I would need at least the following (and probably more with more time to think):

 

1.  a new venue (we won't get a venue for what they IHSAA pays to rent our gym at Center Grove)

2.  a new qualifcation system

3.  Costs involved (officials, transportation, awards)

4.  IHSAA man hours invovled in making these changes happen

 

 

Would this really be all that hard? 

 

 

[PreparetoWin]

Cale-  

 

So are what they wanting is to keep things the same, just make them profitable?  I am not a coach, I am not a parent and I have no vested interest in the sport besides I love wrestling.  So I now I am not the person to take the reins, but it looks as though there are some people in this forum that sound passionate enough and willing to help do what needs to be done.  It sounds to me like we just need a starting point.  Do you think if we were able to make the current format profitable this year, with a 3-4 year plan to class team state to make it even more profitable, they would be willing to listen? what would be the chances of them agreeing to something like this, if they knew 90% of coaches and ADs were behind it and we showed a business plan using other states to show growth and profit?  

 

1.  a new venue (we won't get a venue for what they IHSAA pays to rent our gym at Center Grove)- I wonder if any schools might be willing to volunteer their gym or rent it on a discount? it would be a nice home court advantage??

2.  a new qualifcation system- there were one or two ideas posted in this thread and the last thread about how other states qualified for the team state tourny that looked interesting.

3.  Costs involved (officials, transportation, awards) what are the costs now? what was the budget the last few years?  

4.  IHSAA man hours invovled in making these changes happen.  Are there a estimated amount of IHSAA man hours in the current form for each year?

 

Has anyone come to you to volunteer time, locations, helping to take the reins on ascpects of this project?

[KarlHungus]

If you have a well thought out proposal with numbers I would love to see it.

 

email me at :

 

hooverc1@centergrove.k12.in.us

 

 

Will it be proposed?  Will it be voted on by the rank and file coaches prior to being proposed?

 

I would be willing to do it but would it not be better received by a president who has said that classing the team and individual would provide the "greatest boost of growth and interest we could ever give wrestling in our state?

[Cale Hoover]

Karl, I am working to get it done.  I am just not doing it the way you want me to. 

 

I would love to have met with you longer, however I did not know who you were.  You introduced yourself at the end of the last day of freestyle state.  I have email and I also have a phone. 

 

I am sorry you are disappointed in the first meeting.  I have many demands on my time and I apologize for not giving you what you wanted.

[KarlHungus]

Karl, I am working to get it done.  I am just not doing it the way you want me to. 

 

Fair enough.  We would love to be kept abreast about how this work is progressing.

 

I would love to have met with you longer, however I did not know who you were.  You introduced yourself at the end of the last day of freestyle state.  I have email and I also have a phone. 

 

As do I, which I believe was provided on the hard copy of items I thought we were going to discuss.  The fact that we were unable to meet longer I can understand as miscommunication as to the intent of the meeting.  The disappointing part is that there was no follow up.  Not even a "thanks but no thanks"

 

I am sorry you are disappointed in the first meeting.  I have many demands on my time and I apologize for not giving you what you wanted.

 

I am over the disappointment.  We all have many demands on our time.  It was not what I wanted....They were ideas to improve the coaches association and wrestling as a whole that were dismissed.

[1oldwrestler]

I'd like to suggest something.  The person or persons that "carry the water" on this class issue to the IHSAA and Coaches Assoc can't have a thin skin and they have to be able to build concensus amongst a very diverse group of coaches.  The folks that are the most vociferous in support of classing IN h.s. wrestling also seem to be the most thin skinned, sarcastic and beligerant individuals on this website when it comes to the classing subject (good guys because I know one of them personally but they are too passionate about the subject and it colors their judgement).  Whoever the committee is made up of it needs to be coaches from all sizes of h.s.'s and the mouthpiece needs to be a concensus builder.  I'm just a dad of wrestlers.  People much smarter than me need to be making the decisions as to who mans the committee.  Choose wisely.

[KarlHungus]

I'd like to suggest something.  The person or persons that "carry the water" on this class issue to the IHSAA and Coaches Assoc can't have a thin skin and they have to be able to build concensus amongst a very diverse group of coaches.  The folks that are the most vociferous in support of classing IN h.s. wrestling also seem to be the most thin skinned, sarcastic and beligerant individuals on this website when it comes to the classing subject (good guys because I know one of them personally but they are too passionate about the subject and it colors their judgement).  Whoever the committee is made up of it needs to be coaches from all sizes of h.s.'s and the mouthpiece needs to be a concensus builder.  I'm just a dad of wrestlers.  People much smarter than me need to be making the decisions as to who mans the committee.  Choose wisely.

 

Since I am the 2nd most vociferous I would say that if I come across as thin skinned, sarcastic or belligerent, that I apologize but sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  I honestly don't care who the messenger is, I just want the message to get out there. 

[Jimtown 138]

Since I am the 2nd most vociferous I would say that if I come across as thin skinned, sarcastic or belligerent, that I apologize but sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  I honestly don't care who the messenger is, I just want the message to get out there. 

 

Looks like to me Karl, you already have grip on the situation. Rock on brother!

[Cale Hoover]

Prepared to win:

 

1.  The major problem with the venue is having the tournament outgrow the facility.  The main problem is getting the floor space for more than four mats.  The ISWA has a similar problem in finding facilities with large floor spaces and adequate seating.  These places (Conseco for example) are expensive.  I will tell you they get our facility at CG for almost nothing.  It is a tough deal to beat.

2.  I have seen many processes to qualify, and I agree many are interesting.  We must work to develop a system that the majority of coaches would support.

3.  All the costs can be calculated from data the IHSAA releases.  We would have to convince them this would be 100% successful.

4.  When I talk man hours, understand, the IHSAA does not want to spend 1 second longer of their time with our sport or any sport.  All of this would need to be done without adding responsibility to them.

 

We will be meeting this weekend with a committee proposal to the Regional Representatives and all members in attendance.  Once approved, the team state committee will begin work.  I will be directing them to consider both short term and long term possibilities.

 

I want to stress to everyone that you do not walk into the IHSAA with suggestions, requests, or proposals and think they are going to be eagerly looking to make changes.  They have a long history of small changes over a period of time.

 

I fully understand that the IHSWCA will not make everyone happy.  That is impossible.  I do hope people understand that I want what is best for our sport right now and in the future.  Ultimately, JD Minch, Trent McCormick, and I bear the responsibility of what will be proposed at the end of the school year.  I am positive some people will be happy and some will be disappointed in what we do! 

[PreparetoWin]

Cale...thanks for your response, I know for me and probably others, there is a disconnect from the processes that have to take place and the minds of those who make the decisions. I do understand that the process can take time and you have to pick battles, you have to compromise a little to get things done for the long term and greater good.  I just think people want to make sure we are headed towards what is best for wrestling and for kids.  People who often feel disconnected from the people who represent them can make them feel like they aren't being heard.  I dont believe this is the case per say, but for someone like me who is just wanting to learn what goes on behind the scene, information and where to get information is valuable.  I know most people dont like to post in the forums and honestly I dont either, but this is a topics that transends big school, small school, coaches, parents, kids, etc. I dont think I am overstating importance of this subject, and I would love to see a blog or posts or something to keep those of us who are not in the loop what is on the table and what ideas are being generated...what things are going to be proposed...is there a time frame for these ideas to be presented...how and what will be proposed in the short term...what is the long term goals for wrestling?  Is there a place I can go to read meeting minutes or anything to see the direction wrestling is taking?

 

Thanks for your time

 

Ty Olds

ty_olds@yahoo.com