Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Though there is a lot more financial and coaching separation in the college level. But you do make a good point Y2. It would be nice to see the runner-up and champion from each weight class and division wrestle Everyone wants to know who the best is The NCAA is classed, just based off different criteria than high school states are classed. They are both based on resources, in high school the main resource is students, at the NCAA level it is money the school is willing to put into their athletics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 If Indiana wrestling was classed i don't know if i would have wrestled at all, and i certainly wouldn't have worked nearly as hard. I wrestled in order to prove to myself that i was the best. That was the only reason. That was the only reason i continued to push myself through a tough practice. That opportunity would not exist if the tournament was classed. Because even if you do accomplish what you set out to do and win a state title there is still another guy claiming he is the best in the state. Yea another good post, the students that really will be effected still want to keep the aura. This is a shame to try to justify class with all the rhetoric. I still only see the coaches beating the drum. I guess they are the only informed ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 They why do kids wrestle in other states, by that theory wrestling would have been dead in the 1980's with only Indiana, New York and California surviving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 BOOM,BOOM,BOOMBOOMThat beat is louder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Louder because wrestling has died since many states have went to class systems, many in the 50's, 60's and 70's. I'm curious why we don't let teenagers run the world in other areas of society. Why aren't more teenagers voted president if they know it all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Louder because wrestling has died since many states have went to class systems, many in the 50's, 60's and 70's. I'm curious why we don't let teenagers run the world in other areas of society. Why aren't more teenagers voted president if they know it all? Can't we say that about coaches also, Rhetoric, BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM. Gettin louder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Oh yes, you are right, boom boom boom, teenagers should run the world! We should let them teach the teachers since teenagers are so smart and don't need us old people to help them out. BOOM BOOM BOOM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 You just have to realize , that the majority of opinion here wants and has a good reason to have single class wrestling, in Indiana. The Rhetoric by coaches on here seems to me to be the ones who want to run roughshod. I could be wrong. The drums seem to be getting Quieter?boom,boom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 You realize that the coaches did vote back earlier in this decade to propose class wrestling to the IHSAA right? This was more than one or two coaches that voted for this. If the coaches in the state want class wrestling it will be proposed to the IHSAA. It doesn't matter what you or any other fan or wrestler believes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
529 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Indivdual one class Team two or three classes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambers Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I think that most of the coaches voted for the individual tournament to be like it is now and the team tournament to be classed. The IHSAA said we could not have it that way. It has to be everything classed or nothing is classed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 It has never gone to the IHSAA before. It was supposed to around 2001 or 2003, and something happened with the IHSWCA and they decided at the last minute to propose wrestle-backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUBjj171 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 if its all or none i say none. If i have to pick one i say team shouldd be classed. Wrestling is 1 vs 1. If you want to win you work that double leg until you cant stand. It doesnt matter how many people go to your school. You only need a practice partner and a coach. So all you would need is an enrollment of 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambers Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 It has never gone to the IHSAA before. It was supposed to around 2001 or 2003, and something happened with the IHSWCA and they decided at the last minute to propose wrestle-backs. If i remember right at the IHSWCA fall coaches meeting the IHSWCA president told us that Bobby Cox told them in a meeting that it would be everything classed or nothing classed. What we wanted to asked for would be turned down. That is why we went with asking for wrestlebacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 They have only discussed it in informal meetings with Bobby Cox, nothing has been formally proposed to the IHSAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I read all of the discussions on this board concerning THE debate. I remember one post that (for me) had alot of valid points. Here it is...... Just for the record, I am for class wrestling. I think it would be great for the growth of our sport. However, just because there are people who think we need it, doesn't mean we should take it to the IHSAA as an association yet. The topic has been polled several times among IHSWCA members and just like on the discussion board, there are vehement supporters on both sides of the issue. As I remember it, the polls have historically been around 50/50, with a slight edge going one way or the other from time to time. (Perhaps it IS time to discuss it / poll it again amongst coaches?). The IHSAA has repeatedly told our representatives that they want to see overwhelming support from the coaches (like 85-90%) for a proposal before they will consider it. So, even if we get 60%, 65%, or even 70% of coaches in favor of class wrestling, the IHSAA will shoot it down because we don't have all of the coaches on board. Furthermore, the IHSAA has set the precedent that they don't want to talk about taking the "individual" sports to classes. Even if 95% of wrestling coaches were in favor of it, the IHSAA would not change JUST wrestling to classes. To them, it's all or nothing, meaning that they would also change track, tennis, swimming, gymnastics, etc. In order to really get the IHSAA's attention, there would probably have to be a coalition of coaches' associations from the "indidvidual" sports show support for classes in their sports and promote the idea together. I'm not saying that this can never be attained, but it's not as simple as just deciding that we as wrestling coaches want class wrestling so it's going to happen. That is why, wrestlebacks, for instance, have been proposed several times (in different forms) by the IHSWCA. Most coaches agree that this would improve our sport and our state tournament. Even WITH overwhelming support of high school coaches, the IHSAA has repeatedly shot us down (why, I don't really know, other than the fact that they don't like change!). Class wrestling may one day come to Indiana, but if and when it does, it will happen in stages: 1) a large majority of coaches in Indiana need to be convinced that there is a need for class wrestling (judging from the discussions that I have read, we are a long way from this right now). 2) once wrestling is solidly in favor of classes, we would need to get to work with other coaches' associations of tennis, golf, swimming, track, etc. and try to convince them to support classes for their sports as well. 3). Finally, if 1 & 2 are achieved, the IHSAA MAY listen to a proposal, but I would still be sceptical of it passing until the powers that be were convinced that it is THEIR idea. I know this may sound like a defeatist attitude, but my point is that it is pretty clear from the historical stance of the IHSAA that proposing class wrestling right now would be something akin to "peeing in the wind" for lack of a better description. Therefore, the IHSWCA has been focusing on changing / improving the system that we DO have to work with. I agree, though, that class wrestling is a hot topic and this discussion board is a great place to debate the virtues / vices of classes and to begin convincing those non - believers that it would be good for our sport. Chris Ervin Crawfordsville High School Head Wrestling Coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
base Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 A debate point in favor of class-less wrestling in Indiana: Take a look at any of the major non-state-run tournaments. Fargo, Tulsa Nationals, etc. When a wrestler goes there they are entered in the individal tournament. No thought is given to what size school, or what background they have, or anything like that. The tournament's purpose is singular -- to determine the single best wrestler at the given weight classes. In my opinion, splitting the individual tournament into classes would be a mistake. Last year, Cody Phillips and Michael Duckworth from Union County were the BEST at their weight class in the state. They were given an opportunity to prove that, and they did it. Given the hypothetical scenario that yes, they won the 1A or 2A or whatever class they would have been in state championship, but Atwood won at another class, and maybe Stein from a third class. In my opinion, that would REALLY take away from knowing that one is a true state champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Can you tell me how those compare to eachother? I am curious how a national tournament compares to a state tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
base Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I compare them because as an individual tournament (whether on national or state level) there is no consideration given to what school-type or club-type or wrestling program background to make it more fair. Some of the kids (Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey) may come from states with lengthy wrestling traditions and be dominant, but there is no call or reason to create separate classes in order to give states with lesser programs any advantage. Each wrestler must stand alone. Likewise with Indiana state tourney. I won't argue the point that it may perhaps get more kids to come out for wrestling programs -- I'm undecided on that one, but cant' argue against it -- but other than hoping for an up-tick in participation, I see no reason to change the current individual tournament format. Team state -- yes, makes sense to me. Individual --- no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Why do 40+ other states class their individual tournament then? Even a state like Wyoming has 3 classes for only 47 schools and began classing wrestling in 1974. Idaho has four divisions with just under 100 schools and began classing in 1963. To me these states are telling me they recognize the differences in big and small schools and wanted to level the playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
base Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Why do 40+ other states class their individual tournament then? Even a state like Wyoming has 3 classes for only 47 schools and began classing wrestling in 1974. Idaho has four divisions with just under 100 schools and began classing in 1963. To me these states are telling me they recognize the differences in big and small schools and wanted to level the playing field. I think that classing individual tournaments may have made more sense in prior decades. Then, it was likely that a high school wrestler was solely a product of his high school (and maybe middle school) wrestling programs. Now, however, many wrestlers are a product of youth clubs, lessons with individual instructors, summer camps, and other available training opportunities. The high school they attend is not as much the sole determinant for individual wrestling success that it used to be. A small school that can encourage kids at a young age to attend a good youth program (even one that might be in a neighboring high school district) has a good chance to field a good team of athletes. Again to the team point, based on average size of high school age kids, it is less likely that they will be able to fill all the weight classes like a larger school would, and for that reason I would side with class wrestling for the team event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGSTICKwalking Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Why do 40+ other states class their individual tournament then? Even a state like Wyoming has 3 classes for only 47 schools and began classing wrestling in 1974. Idaho has four divisions with just under 100 schools and began classing in 1963. To me these states are telling me they recognize the differences in big and small schools and wanted to level the playing field. Just because you can CLASS, doesn't mean you SHOULD. What is POPULAR isn't always RIGHT, and what is RIGHT isn't always POPULAR!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 New York just went to class wrestling 2004. Here is their state tournament attendance before and after the split to two divisions 2009 ? 15,154 (Albany) 2008 ? 15,473 (Rochester) 2007 - 15,034 (Albany) 2006 - 17,755 (Long Island) 2005 - 17,323 (Albany) 2004 - 10,599 (Buffalo) 2003 - 9,401 (Syracuse) 2002 - 8,505 (Syracuse) In California there has been significant talk about classing wrestling there too. If California were to go to a classed individual format, would you agree that Indiana should? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cewrestlingfan Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 In California there has been significant talk about classing wrestling there too. If California were to go to a classed individual format, would you agree that Indiana should? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Just because you can CLASS, doesn't mean you SHOULD. What is POPULAR isn't always RIGHT, and what is RIGHT isn't always POPULAR!!! Thanks for answering the question, much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts