Class or Classless

[base]

New York just went to class wrestling 2004.  

 

Here is their state tournament attendance before and after the split to two divisions

2009 ? 15,154 (Albany)

2008 ? 15,473 (Rochester)

2007 - 15,034 (Albany)

2006 - 17,755 (Long Island)

2005 - 17,323 (Albany)

2004 - 10,599 (Buffalo)

2003 - 9,401 (Syracuse)

2002 - 8,505 (Syracuse)

 

In California there has been significant talk about classing wrestling there too.  If California were to go to a classed individual format, would you agree that Indiana should?

 

 

The statistics do look pretty impressive, however you probably also have to consider that along with the change to a classed tournament, there is also a change of location, and a change in venue which may hold more people.  If an Indiana change to a class system happened in conjuction with a move of the tournament from Evansville to Indiaanpolis, I woudl also expect a large jump in attendance.  Buffalo for sure is at the extreme northern end of the state, I doubt if very many NYC/Long Island peole made the drive for that.  Albany is very central within the state.

 

With regards to the question about California, I wouldn't say that their change shoudl automatically signal a change in Indiana. 

 

Y2, you're a great statesman for the pro-classing group.  I am interested in hearing what you consider the main reason for going to the class system, so far you've thrown out there:

 

attendance

level the playing field

more participation at the HS team level

 

what other ones you got?

[MattM]

In California there has been significant talk about classing wrestling there too.  If California were to go to a classed individual format, would you agree that Indiana should?

 

I would think California almost logistically has to go to class wrestling in the near future.  Not so much to sperate the big and small schools as we are making a point for.  But more so they don't have the start the state series in January to complete it on time based on the growing wrestling population and vast distance in the state.  I would think class wrestling though would just make people have to travel even farther to events making that an new logistical issue.

[Y2CJ41]

 

The statistics do look pretty impressive, however you probably also have to consider that along with the change to a classed tournament, there is also a change of location, and a change in venue which may hold more people.  If an Indiana change to a class system happened in conjuction with a move of the tournament from Evansville to Indiaanpolis, I woudl also expect a large jump in attendance.  Buffalo for sure is at the extreme northern end of the state, I doubt if very many NYC/Long Island peole made the drive for that.  Albany is very central within the state.

 

With regards to the question about California, I wouldn't say that their change shoudl automatically signal a change in Indiana. 

 

Y2, you're a great statesman for the pro-classing group.  I am interested in hearing what you consider the main reason for going to the class system, so far you've thrown out there:

 

attendance

level the playing field

more participation at the HS team level

 

what other ones you got?

I see too many small school programs struggling right now.  Too many small schools are struggling to fill full squads right now and on top of that struggling to keep a decent amount of JV kids on their team.  Class wrestling will give these kids a level playing field instead of having to go up against the big dogs year in year out.  Think of if you are a small school in Penn and Mishawaka's sectional.  What would it honestly take for a 2A or smaller school to win that sectional?  What would it take for them to qualify 7 kids for regional?  Mishawaka and Penn accounted for 27 of the 56 regional qualifiers in that sectional.  How do you build a program when you are continually trounced, even though you are competitive within your conference?

 

Laville a school of 383 students is in that sectional and qualified zero kids for regional.  They finished in the top half of their conference and a school in the adjacent sectional that they beat at conference qualified 7 kids for regional.  How is LaVille going to get better when they have to go through six 4A and 5A schools? 

[base]

I see too many small school programs struggling right now.  Too many small schools are struggling to fill full squads right now and on top of that struggling to keep a decent amount of JV kids on their team.   Class wrestling will give these kids a level playing field instead of having to go up against the big dogs year in year out.  Think of if you are a small school in Penn and Mishawaka's sectional.  What would it honestly take for a 2A or smaller school to win that sectional?  What would it take for them to qualify 7 kids for regional?  Mishawaka and Penn accounted for 27 of the 56 regional qualifiers in that sectional.  How do you build a program when you are continually trounced, even though you are competitive within your conference?

 

Laville a school of 383 students is in that sectional and qualified zero kids for regional.  They finished in the top half of their conference and a school in the adjacent sectional that they beat at conference qualified 7 kids for regional.  How is LaVille going to get better when they have to go through six 4A and 5A schools? 

Do the Laville kids attend offseason wrestling training?  Do they go to wrestling camps?  Can they go to open wrestling rooms at Mishawaka and Penn in the offseason to get good competition?  Do they participate in any ISWA meets?

 

I "think* that the only advantage Mishawaka and Penn wrestlers have over their Laville peers is what happens in the Mishawaka and Penn wrestling room during the season (unless I'm wrong and they run a closed room in offseason).

 

Mishawaka is only one school.  In the individual tournament, four spots get to go on to Regionals.  So if you concede that Laville has no hope against a Mishawaka wrester, ever, then they still are battling for one of 3 spots to move on.

 

This argument (on an individual basis, not team) sounds like Laville individual wrestlers are simply not at the same level as others at their sectional tournament, so you woudl like to lower the bar until there is a point where they will be good enough to advance.

 

P.S.  please keep in mind, Laville here is only being used as an example -- I don't any kids on their team and I am not saying they are poor wrestlers, please do not take this personally, you can replace the "Laville" name with any other small school perhaps.

[FANMAN]

Why do 40+ other states class their individual tournament then?  Even a state like Wyoming has 3 classes for only 47 schools and began classing wrestling in 1974.  Idaho has four divisions with just under 100 schools and began classing in 1963.   

 

To me these states are telling me they recognize the differences in big and small schools and wanted to level the playing field. 

 

In Wyoming, if the classes are divided evenly 16, 16, 15.. all kids are ranked.. and would make the state finals... lol 

[Y2CJ41]

Do the Laville kids attend offseason wrestling training?  Do they go to wrestling camps?  Can they go to open wrestling rooms at Mishawaka and Penn in the offseason to get good competition?  Do they participate in any ISWA meets?

 

I "think* that the only advantage Mishawaka and Penn wrestlers have over their Laville peers is what happens in the Mishawaka and Penn wrestling room during the season (unless I'm wrong and they run a closed room in offseason).

 

Mishawaka is only one school.  In the individual tournament, four spots get to go on to Regionals.  So if you concede that Laville has no hope against a Mishawaka wrester, ever, then they still are battling for one of 3 spots to move on.

 

This argument (on an individual basis, not team) sounds like Laville individual wrestlers are simply not at the same level as others at their sectional tournament, so you woudl like to lower the bar until there is a point where they will be good enough to advance.

 

P.S.  please keep in mind, Laville here is only being used as an example -- I don't any kids on their team and I am not saying they are poor wrestlers, please do not take this personally, you can replace the "Laville" name with any other small school perhaps.

I have seen LaVille kids up at Mishawaka, but most of them probably play baseball, run track or play golf in the spring because those sports need athletes too right?  At small schools the pool of athletes is very limited.  Those athletes must be shared amongst the coaches or the whole athletic program suffers.  Sure the wrestling team might have a state medalist, but the football team would lose out on a two-way starter or the track team might lose out on someone that can do well in three events.  At Mishawaka and Penn, they have those athletes, but guess what, if they aren't in the room in the spring, their backup is and he is getting better at wrestling.   

[base]

I have seen LaVille kids up at Mishawaka, but most of them probably play baseball, run track or play golf in the spring because those sports need athletes too right?  At small schools the pool of athletes is very limited.  Those athletes must be shared amongst the coaches or the whole athletic program suffers.  Sure the wrestling team might have a state medalist, but the football team would lose out on a two-way starter or the track team might lose out on someone that can do well in three events.  At Mishawaka and Penn, they have those athletes, but guess what, if they aren't in the room in the spring, their backup is and he is getting better at wrestling.   

I can definitely buy that argument!

 

So, given that -- what is the class wrestling tournament accomplishing?  Based on what you're saying here, it doesn't sound as if there is a huge untapped pool of talent at these schools that would come out if the team was winning Class 2A Regionals or whatever it would be called.

 

And the kids that are at the small schools may not see a tremendous improvement or increase in dedication to the sport either, because they are already stretched pretty thin.

 

 

All I am left with is the objective to recognize the athletes at these schools who have chosen to possibly play multiple sports.

 

You're slowly winning me over with some pretty good arguments, but I'm still on the side of the one-class system so far.  But a good debate!

[base]

Joe, since you are living this reality, let's use Garrett as an example.

 

If there was a classed system this year, and your team advanced pretty far in the tournament, say Semi-state or even state.  You also had several wrestlers who advanced to the Class 2A state meet.

 

What does this do for your program?  Based on what you said earlier, I'm assuming that there aren't many untapped wrestling studs at your school who aren't already playing another sport.  For those kids on your team who have a good potential, would they begin going to more of the additional training opportunities, or will they be playing spring soccer/baseball and fall baseball/football/soccer?

 

I think the real-world example would really help me to see the light.

[Y2CJ41]

I can definitely buy that argument!

 

So, given that -- what is the class wrestling tournament accomplishing?  Based on what you're saying here, it doesn't sound as if there is a huge untapped pool of talent at these schools that would come out if the team was winning Class 2A Regionals or whatever it would be called.

 

And the kids that are at the small schools may not see a tremendous improvement or increase in dedication to the sport either, because they are already stretched pretty thin.

 

 

All I am left with is the objective to recognize the athletes at these schools who have chosen to possibly play multiple sports.

 

You're slowly winning me over with some pretty good arguments, but I'm still on the side of the one-class system so far.  But a good debate!

Let me put it this way, which are you more likely to put time into, a sport that you and your team has a shot at sectional and regional championships or one that you are not so good at?  Give the kids a little more success and they will build upon that.  That would mean, while being stretched thin, they would think more about putting time into wrestling at camps, ISWA meets, etc. 

[Y2CJ41]

Joe, since you are living this reality, let's use Garrett as an example.

 

If there was a classed system this year, and your team advanced pretty far in the tournament, say Semi-state or even state.  You also had several wrestlers who advanced to the Class 2A state meet.

 

What does this do for your program?  Based on what you said earlier, I'm assuming that there aren't many untapped wrestling studs at your school who aren't already playing another sport.  For those kids on your team who have a good potential, would they begin going to more of the additional training opportunities, or will they be playing spring soccer/baseball and fall baseball/football/soccer?

 

I think the real-world example would really help me to see the light.

We have a great group of kids right now.  I happened to come along at a good time where there were some dedicated kids.  Some even play spring sports and come up to club after a meet/game or practice.  I wish they all were dedicated like that, but I do not blame them for going home after practice and doing homework. 

 

What class would do for our program is stabilize it for the future.  Our basketball program has won two straight sectional titles in a weak sectional.  If the basketball coach and I are trying to entice a kid to play our sport, he will win.  He will say, "we have won two sectional championships."  I will say "well we get a couple kids to state."  If that kid isn't an all-star wrestler he is going to be lured towards basketball more times than not.  Also with more success, we keep the JV kids out for the team.  Everyone likes to be on a winning team.  The mentality at Garrett and other small schools seems to be if you are not varsity there is no point to being on the team.  Before you say it, yes we have greatly increased our JV matches and still get the same attitude.  The kids will be more apt to ride the pine so to speak for two years like they do in football for their chance at varsity.  Just an example, we finished last year around 25 kids, which is great for us.  We lost four to graduation, so had 21 kids returning.  So if you add in the 8 or 9 freshmen, we should have had about 30 kids on the team this year.  We finished with 19.  We had about 7 kids not come out that were JV last year and most likely JV again this year.  Of course they say they will come out next year when they feel like they'll be varsity, but ride the pine in football.

 

So to sum it up, it would help sustain us as a good program for more than just a couple years. 

[base]

We have a great group of kids right now.  I happened to come along at a good time where there were some dedicated kids.  Some even play spring sports and come up to club after a meet/game or practice.  I wish they all were dedicated like that, but I do not blame them for going home after practice and doing homework. 

 

What class would do for our program is stabilize it for the future.  Our basketball program has won two straight sectional titles in a weak sectional.  If the basketball coach and I are trying to entice a kid to play our sport, he will win.  He will say, "we have won two sectional championships."  I will say "well we get a couple kids to state."  If that kid isn't an all-star wrestler he is going to be lured towards basketball more times than not.  Also with more success, we keep the JV kids out for the team.  Everyone likes to be on a winning team.  The mentality at Garrett and other small schools seems to be if you are not varsity there is no point to being on the team.  Before you say it, yes we have greatly increased our JV matches and still get the same attitude.  The kids will be more apt to ride the pine so to speak for two years like they do in football for their chance at varsity.  Just an example, we finished last year around 25 kids, which is great for us.  We lost four to graduation, so had 21 kids returning.  So if you add in the 8 or 9 freshmen, we should have had about 30 kids on the team this year.  We finished with 19.  We had about 7 kids not come out that were JV last year and most likely JV again this year.  Of course they say they will come out next year when they feel like they'll be varsity, but ride the pine in football.

 

So to sum it up, it would help sustain us as a good program for more than just a couple years.   

Thanks for both examples. it has been a good discussion withyou.  Wahoo for you!  Best of luck with your wrestling team coach.

[Disco]

Ok lets see, we can't compete.... hm... lets change it so we can be successful, this way it appears that we have accomplished our goals... and the beat keeps going with the classed rhetoric.

[FANMAN]

So, if it went to class.. would you even bother wrestling schools not in your class?

If it went class.. still advance top 4 from sect, reg, semi,?  Would likely see alot more so-so records.

I don't believe that classing will bring more kids into the small school programs, as the athletes are thin as it is.  I have never heard a kid say, " if I only had to wrestle kids my own size from schools my own size.. I'll join " .  Not sure I've ever heard a kid say, " well, he was from a bigger school, I was expected to lose ".  I've seem alot of these 4a schools with really subpar wrestling programs, but a few solid individuals.  Also, still forfeiting some weights, not just the lightweights either.  I say all this while my kid goes to a 2a school, who dropped 2a schools from the schedule to face tougher, sometimes bigger schools elsewhere, to improve the individuals, but took some beatings from the bigger schools as a team.   Some of the big schools took the beating from us, and what would be their excuse for losing to a small school?  

 

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

So, if it went to class.. would you even bother wrestling schools not in your class?

We would seek out the best competition to prepare us for the state tournament.  Just as we do now.

If it went class.. still advance top 4 from sect, reg, semi,?  Would likely see alot more so-so records.

I saw some shaky records at semi-state last year.  Also, I would think if we went to a 2-3 class system we would only have three levels, so there wouldn't be less poor records.

 

I don't believe that classing will bring more kids into the small school programs, as the athletes are thin as it is.  I have never heard a kid say, " if I only had to wrestle kids my own size from schools my own size.. I'll join " .  Not sure I've ever heard a kid say, " well, he was from a bigger school, I was expected to lose ".  I've seem alot of these 4a schools with really subpar wrestling programs, but a few solid individuals.  Also, still forfeiting some weights, not just the lightweights either.  I say all this while my kid goes to a 2a school, who dropped 2a schools from the schedule to face tougher, sometimes bigger schools elsewhere, to improve the individuals, but took some beatings from the bigger schools as a team.   Some of the big schools took the beating from us, and what would be their excuse for losing to a small school? 

I am glad no kids say that.  The thing is more success team or individuals have the more that want to do that sport.  Before you can walk, you must crawl and many small schools aren't even crawling right now.

[FANMAN]

Wouldn't you want to also wrestle the best competition for the state series also?  If it so happens the best kids in each weight are from big schools, so be it, if from small schools. so be it.  Competition is just that, seek out the best, not just the best... until state since the best isn't in our class.  Then, be happy with just the best in your class.  There are always shaky records, but, advancing 4 from each would increase the chances of more shaky ones.  Their are many big schools not filling spots, and they have the enrollment, an small schools, some, who excel at getting full rosters year in an year out.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely against the idea, however, I do not believe it increases or makes better anything, just simply spreads it out.  I believe the 2a school here would succeed greatly if only among other schools our size.  It would increase our chance as a team advancement, and a few individuals as well, maybe even able to get a 3rd state champ out of the deal. 

[Y2CJ41]

Wouldn't you want to also wrestle the best competition for the state series also?

The competitor in me says 100% yes.  I doubt you will find a class supporter that feels any differently.

 

What I have been saying all along though is that even though I love the single class tournament, I think what is best for the sport in this state is a classed system.  While this isn't a small school kid, I had a kid last year come up to the club that went to semi-state that year.  He got a taste of success and wanted more, so he decided to put more time into wrestling in the offseason.  It was fun to talk to him and his dad and his dad talking about how gungho he was about wrestling all of a sudden since he got to wrestle at the coliseum.  If wrestling were classed maybe more small school kids and even big school kids would do this since they got a glimpse of success.

[FANMAN]

If you believe that, then every kid believes that.  Any kid who is motivated can do amazing things, if he puts in the time.  Big or small school.  The kids who make it to the finals of each class.. if there would be only 2 classes, also, would likely make it to or near the finals, of a 1 class, maybe meeting in quarters or semi's, all depending on location an draws.  Any kid who gets a taste of something that they believe in, almost always put forth extra effort an time.  I know my kids do, an my kid is just a 2nd year wrestler, freshman, starting varsity, taking complete an total domination most every match.  He has won very few matches, however, he practices hard, wrestlers as hard as he can and continues to strive to be better.  He has no problems wanting to wrestle the best, knowing what the outcome is going to be or how short it might last.    If it comes to it, I believe as you also said you believe, the competitor in you  wants 1 class, but,  who are the ones competing.. the kids.  And I believe majority if not all kids would prefer 1 class for individuals, and maybe classed for team.. maybe.  I believe in each an every persons mind, knowing you won your weight in a 1 class system, would mean more than in multi class.  However, also in each persons mind, that a classed team idea might be the way to go, because as a team of a similiar size, they can compete 103-Hvy.  Looking back at our teams dual schedule, I believe that most if not all our dual losses were to much bigger schools, howver I don't believe that any of our kids would want a classed individual, but maybe a team format one.

[Y2CJ41]

If you believe that, then every kid believes that. Any kid who is motivated can do amazing things, if he puts in the time.  Big or small school.  The kids who make it to the finals of each class.. if there would be only 2 classes, also, would likely make it to or near the finals, of a 1 class, maybe meeting in quarters or semi's, all depending on location an draws.  Any kid who gets a taste of something that they believe in, almost always put forth extra effort an time.  I know my kids do, an my kid is just a 2nd year wrestler, freshman, starting varsity, taking complete an total domination most every match.  He has won very few matches, however, he practices hard, wrestlers as hard as he can and continues to strive to be better.  He has no problems wanting to wrestle the best, knowing what the outcome is going to be or how short it might last.    If it comes to it, I believe as you also said you believe, the competitor in you  wants 1 class, but,  who are the ones competing.. the kids.  And I believe majority if not all kids would prefer 1 class for individuals, and maybe classed for team.. maybe.  I believe in each an every persons mind, knowing you won your weight in a 1 class system, would mean more than in multi class.  However, also in each persons mind, that a classed team idea might be the way to go, because as a team of a similiar size, they can compete 103-Hvy.  Looking back at our teams dual schedule, I believe that most if not all our dual losses were to much bigger schools, howver I don't believe that any of our kids would want a classed individual, but maybe a team format one.

I will just comment on the text in red.  Class wrestling would give twice as many kids a glimmer of hope that they can make it to state(in a two class system).  That would mean twice as many kids would be motivated to put more work into the sport.  Add to them the kids like your son or myself who were not very good starting out and not only do more kids get to taste the success, the quality of the wrestling goes up because more kids seek out ways to improve.  A kid is more likely to put time into a sport he feels he has the best shot at success with.  At the small school level, kids feel they will have more success in football, baseball, etc because their teams and individuals have a better shot at success. 

 

The rest of your statement is that we should do what is best for the kids even if they don't like it.  We do it all the time, this is no different. 

 

As far as classed kids feeling cheapened by their titles, they honestly do not feel that way.  They all worked their butts off to get where they were and are proud of their accomplishments.  No one can take that away from them.  If they truly want to see if they are the best, they will seek out those kids at tournaments during the season or in the offseason.  They will seek out those kids at national tournaments too.

[FANMAN]

I never said it was cheapened, but said it would mean more to the kids.  Your right, no one can take it away from any winners, and most all wrestlers work their butts off, the elite often work the butts off of someone else too.  I also do what I think is best for my kids, however, sometimes I'm wrong on what I'm thinking is truly best for them.  This could be one of those things I'm wrong on, or, it could be one I'm right about.  Which is why it is highly debated on amongst those on this site, and it is likely to not change.  There isn't a clear cut solution, to it which likely will prevent change from happening, for the good or the bad.  It simply will be what it is now.