cdnobbe Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I looked for a similar topic through about 10 pages of threads and did not find anything, so I thought I would address it to see what others think. It occurred to me that the alternate to semi-state, by being the loser in the first round to the regional champion, could be, more often than not, the worst (8th best for those PC people :) wrestler from that regional. Although the case could be made that this wrestler is not likely to have much of a chance of beating a regional champion anyway, it would at least make for some better wrestling in the event that the alternate did have to wrestle at the semi-state if the following was implemented: (awkward transition, but I do not feel like going back to reword) I recognize that the IHSAA will not allow for full wrestlebacks at the regional, semi-state, or state finals. However, besides the slight addition to time at the regional, I think it would be a good idea to have the first round losers drop down to a separate bracket and wrestle back to fifth. By doing this, it would allow for the fifth best wrestler to advance as the alternate, thereby allowing for a more competitive first round match-up at the semi-state in the event that the alternate would be called to wrestle. I do not know if this was ever presented by the IHSWCA during all of the discussions with the IHSAA as a possibility. The IHSAA may not be interested at all in adding any more time or feel it is fruitless because of the unlikely nature that this alternate would ever make a difference. A couple of reasons why it may be a good thing: 1.) It allows the kids to wrestle a couple of more matches even if they lose in the first round. Some parents travel a long way to regional to see their kid lose in the first match of the day. At the very least, the parent could now see two matches. 2.) To some, it is a big accomplishment to be a semi-state qualifier. I would feel better bestowing that achievement on someone more deserving than what is likely with the present format. 3.) As mentioned earlier, it will allow for the fifth best wrestler to advance if the alternate was inserted. I am certain their are other benefits, but that is what has so far come to mind. Are there any drawbacks? What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
former130 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I think it would be a big waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 At the end of the day you have to beat the best to be the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustang Fan Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I have to agree, seems like a waste of time. It's a long day at these tournaments, why make them longer for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnobbe Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 At the end of the day you have to beat the best to be the best. Then why do we advance anyone but the champion? That is what the IHSAA would contend as well. I am sure there are at least a few examples that TAE could give to demonstrate a state champion that did not finish first at semi-state. However, the person at the top of the stand at Conseco is ultimately the best. I will agree with that. However, as an example, the 145 placers at Richmond are the same four from the South Dearborn Sectional. The only thing is they did a complete role reversal in finish. All four ended the opposite of sectional placing. 1-4, 3-2, 2-3, 4-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 At this point in the individual state competition I'm a big fan of single elimination. Every wrestler at this point should be peaking. No excuses. Should we have wrestlebacks Fri. Night at the show to see how the finish 9-16? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
former130 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 To have the first round losers wrestleback to see who's the alternate is crazy! If your gonna do that why not have full wrestlebacks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnobbe Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 This is not an argument for the state finals. I just feel that it is disconcerting to some the way the structure is and that the IHSWCA has fought for full wrestlebacks in the past. I just thought this would be a fresh approach. In regard to the state finals, I do think it should be run as a full wrestleback tournament where losers could possibly wrestle all the way back to third. By starting on Friday night, this could be done. I know the Jeff Classic is run this way every other year when a basketball game > does not dictate the tournament has to be a one-day tournament. The tournament almost always gets done at a reasonable time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
former130 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 If the IHSAA won't go for full wrestlebacks the their is no way they will go for wrestlebacks to see who the alternate is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 If 1 4th placer beats a Champ it makes it all worth it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naco228 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 i think maybe all the stages should be like sectionals at Semi state, since there is 16 wrestlers, you have to win first round to continue then you have the top 8 now you can just follow the rules like sectionals i think this is how it should be for all stages i think you will weed out who truely is the top 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnobbe Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 Just for my own curiosity, I added a poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Easy solution for an alternate, without having wrestle-backs, would be making it the highest sectional placer eliminated in round one. In the event their are two eliminated that that placed the same in sectional the one that was either eliminated by the highest placer or the one from the winners sectional should be the the first alternate. I don't see as big of an issue with the semi-state alternate but as similar idea could also work at that level. The highest eliminated regional placer would be the state alternate. In the event of a tie (which their would certainly be at semi-state) the one who was eliminated by the higher semi-state placer becomes the first alternate. This would somewhat award a wrestler for placing high in the previous event but having the misfortune of getting a tough draw at that event. Currently we just pick the person eliminated by the champion even though he proabably was not the most deserving wrestler based on his previous results. Obviously alternates have little overall impact on the tournament but its seems a little more fair to try and get the best alternate available (as unbaisly as possible) in the event someone does drop out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsaw Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 heck why dont we just do best out of 3 for each kid you have to wrestle.....I am in no favor of wrestlebacks past sectional....just be ready to wrestle, end of story...how often does an alt. gets the chance to wrestle at this level of the tournament anyways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnobbe Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 MattM, What you proposed is not a bad idea either. You are right, the scenario at semi-state would be a bit more complicated, but definitely doable. Being the first year for the current format, certainly issues and kinks will arise that need to be worked out. That is primarily what I was trying to attempt with this thread. This is something I saw as an issue (however minor it may seem to some ;D) that could be worked out to come up with a better solution than the current one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Drooke, I bet you and Y2 get in some pretty heated arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Cloud Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Agreed, we need to find a better way to get an alternate. Odds favor the alternate being a fourth place Sectional finisher. Why? Because the two fourth place finishers in each Sectional face a Sectional champion in the Regional first round. Look at your Regional brackets. At PH Saturday 12 of the 14 weights were won by Sectional champions, making a fourth place finisher from the sectional an alternate to Semi-State. The only exceptions were Cathedral's Tony McGinley at 140, who forfeited his sectional final as a precautionary measure due to a sore shoulder and Ben Vondersaar of Guerin who lost in the sectional semi-finals due to an injury to his opponent during a moved called as illegal). However, IHSAA will not agree to wrestlebacks for the alternate spot. The host schools would sell more concessions by keeping more people there longer (which I don't mind as a Regional host) but there are no extra ticket sales and the school AD's would be less likely to want to host a regional if you had to add 42 more matches (28 matches in the first round of wrestleback, 14 matches in the second). Some of them host other events that night and adding that many matches would make it tough to do both. I think the only only plausible idea I've seen so far is to go with the highest "seeded" wrestler who didn't make it out of the first round and in the event of a tie (two thirds losing in first round, for example) go with the kid from the sectional that produced the weight class champ. This won't cost anything, take any longer or be difficult to understand. I'd like to hear your thoughts Dave Cloud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 At the end of the day you have to beat the best to be the best. Then why do we advance anyone but the champion? That is what the IHSAA would contend as well. I am sure there are at least a few examples that TAE could give to demonstrate a state champion that did not finish first at semi-state. I know of one, I know there are more. A few years back, Danny Williams of Warren Central injured his ankle late in the season. He was unable to compete the way he wanted to all the way through the tourney. He would get to the match that moved him on in the tourney and then FF. he ended up a 4th place out of SS and won at 140 that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC Computer Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I posted earlier that the Jay County Sectional had a Sectional alternate who will also be the Semi-State alternate, just because he was inserted against the other Sectional champion, who also won the regional. I'm no in favor of wrestlebacks, but an alternate method does need to implemented at regional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
former130 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Does it really matter who the alternate is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC Computer Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 In most cases, no. It only matters of one of the place winners from that regional cannot participate on Saturday. Then the runner-up goes in as the fourth place finisher. There were three Delta Sectional place winners who did not wrestle at Jay County and that's a pretty high number. The alternates for two of the weight classes did not show, so a forfeit was awarded. The one wrestler who did appear is the one who is now the Semi-State alternate. He knew he was wrestling by mid-week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I posted earlier that the Jay County Sectional had a Sectional alternate who will also be the Semi-State alternate, just because he was inserted against the other Sectional champion, who also won the regional. I'm no in favor of wrestlebacks, but an alternate method does need to implemented at regional. That could be somewhat common unless the system was slightly adjusted in some way. Hopefully the powers that be will recognize the error in this since the qualifications for semi-state have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goul149 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Instead of using the wrestler that losses to the champ. Why not let the person that loss to the person dropping out become that persons alternate. In other words each of the 4 guys going to Semi-state each have there own alternate, if they dont participate then the person they beat gets to take their palce. Makes since to me. Andrew Goul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Does it really matter who the alternate is? For the 152 weightclass out of the Castle Regional it would matter who the alternate is? There is not 2 points difference between the top 5 guys - Princeton, Heritage Hills, Castle, Reitz and Mater Dei. MD was the odd man out losing in sudden victory 3-2 to Castle in the first round. However, the alternate would be Memorial since he lost to the eventual champ Princeton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnobbe Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 Instead of using the wrestler that losses to the champ. Why not let the person that loss to the person dropping out become that persons alternate. Mr. Goul, I do not mind this idea either. This is another viable solution given that the IHSAA is not likely to approve any type of wrestleback for these kids. I know the alternate is not the biggest of worries, but I am glad people have put in their two cents on the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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