royboy74 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 These are some goofy ideas. The team scoring is fine the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutsdad Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 These are some goofy ideas. The team scoring is fine the way it is. I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 i totally disagree with that. in tight matches that would add up quick and in essence only make a close descision worth 2 points overall. That's kind of the point. There should be a difference between a 7-0 and a 6-5 match as far as team scoring goes. it all boils down to the fact of not getting pinned and staying off your back. Dont reward someone for losing. You're contradicting yourself within the same argument. You say you don't want to reward the losing wrestler. But is not getting pinned (tech'd or major'd for that matter) rewarding the losing wrestler? i like the idea of encouraging aggressiveness, BUT that once again is sending the wrong message. What wrong message? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatChick76 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 These are some goofy ideas. The team scoring is fine the way it is. I agree. A Tech. Fall should not be weighted the same as a Pin. The whole objective of wrestling is to work for the pin. If you get the fall, you get 6...if not...you don't. I think it's just that simple. There are some kids that always end up with tech. falls because they're good at takedowns and never really work for the pin. Being good at takedowns is commendable, but the ojective of wrestling is not to "takedown, let up, takedown, let up, etc."...it's to get the fall. Keep the points the way they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeandBreighton Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 So the score is 36-30, and you are winning. You tell your kid, just don't give up the tech fall, cause we win on criteria, just get pinned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyshred Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Keep things the way they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I think everything is fine except I'd like to see one team point given to the losing wrestler who scores an offensive point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood1 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I think everything is fine except I'd like to see one team point given to the losing wrestler who scores an offensive point. I like it now, but I like debate also.... Sooooo you are saying that a T or R would score 2 in the match and one for the team? In this case, kid could be "dominated" via Tech or fall and score zero. He could actually SCORE 15 (via escapes) and get zero, opposed to a guy that lost 17-2 that got the 1st T, then was reversed and near falled resulting in the tech. hmmmmm So it's not really punishing the kid that would tech by takedown, it's encouraging the other guy to at least score something offensively....hmmm Scenario A: W1 scores a T and was reversed and pinned by W2 :: Team W1=1 Team W2=6 (5 pt. margin) Scenario B: W2 scores T and releases W1 for E to tech for the win 30-15 :: Team W1=0 Team W2=5 (5 pt. margin) Scenario C: W2 scores T and releases W1 for E, W1 manages to hit a switch for R before being teched for the win 32-17 :: Team W1=1 Team W2=5 (4 pt. margin) Instead of being the old "just stay off your back!" instructions to an inexperienced guy filling a slot, now it's "we need you to stay off your back AND score a T or R!" ...cool, it's growing on me. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAncientElder Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 The object of wrestling, since day one, has been to pin your opponent. Anything less should be considered LESS. TheAncientElder (TAE) The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana. I wear my Fez with pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
former130 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 The object of wrestling, since day one, has been to pin your opponent. Anything less should be considered LESS. TheAncientElder (TAE) The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana. I wear my Fez with pride. I always thought the object was to win!! Silly me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Scenario A: W1 scores a T and was reversed and pinned by W2 :: Team W1=1 Team W2=6 (5 pt. margin) Scenario B: W2 scores T and releases W1 for E to tech for the win 30-15 :: Team W1=0 Team W2=5 (5 pt. margin) Scenario C: W2 scores T and releases W1 for E, W1 manages to hit a switch for R before being teched for the win 32-17 :: Team W1=1 Team W2=5 (4 pt. margin) These scenarios are what I'm kind of pointing at. Not all matches that end in a minor decision (major, tech, and pin included) are the same. Match #1: Wrestler A dominates Wrestler B by 5 or 6 points without giving up an offensive point. Match #2: Wrestler A beats Wrestler B by 1 point in a back and forth bout. Under the current system, there's no difference as far as team scoring. Rewarding the losing wrestler that scored offensive points helps distinguish the differences. Instead of being the old "just stay off your back!" instructions to an inexperienced guy filling a slot, now it's "we need you to stay off your back AND score a T or R!" ...cool, it's growing on me. 8) I'm glad to see one of my ideas is growing on someone. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ace2212 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 First, this board has hit it huge with TAE now posting. Second, the object of wrestling is not to pin, it is to WIN, by either scoring more points OR by pinning. For example, the goal of FB is to score more points than your opponent. Sure, its great to score touchdowns instead of FG's or Safeties, but i'll take a 2-0 win over a 48-49 loss (I'd rather watch the high scoring game). I'm not advocating a scoring change, just trying to clarify the object of wrestling. Getting a pin may be a goal, just like getting 8 td's, or not giving up an offensive point, but the object is to win. Everyone criticizes Harper for his style, but he wins, a lot in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cewrestlingfan Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Agreed that the first goal is to win. However the ultimate goal is to win by fall. More points for the team in a dual or a tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STARSMAN Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Agreed that the first goal is to win. However the ultimate goal is to win by fall. More points for the team in a dual or a tournament. i agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatChick76 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 When the Tech Fall was originally established it was worth 6 pts and then later it was changed to being worth 5 pts. Does anyone remember this or the reasoning for a) the original establishment of the 6 pts and the reasoning that was given to change it to 5 pts? Just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood1 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 The object of wrestling, since day one, has been to pin your opponent. Anything less should be considered LESS. Again, I hate even participating in this argument because I am happy with the way things are....but I can't resist the compulsion to debate! That said.... The scenario being described doesn't change or contradict anything TAE is saying. The object remains to pin and is rewarded the same (6 for fall, 5 for tech). And with regard to "anything less" being considered less, I believe that is exactly what it does. If a kid goes out with the instructions of "just stay off your back!" it is damage control. The kid has no motivation to do anything other then that. He will score only when he is "cut" and gets the E .....he will be rewarded accordingly with a 0. Now if a kid heads to the mat with his team up against a superior opponent...coach and wrestler are both thinking that regardless of the score or outcome from the other side IF he can score an offensive point, he can have a signifigant impact on the outcome of the dual. If his team is up by 5, if he can score 1 T or R, he can save the tie even if he gets pinned! And if he stays off his back AND scores an offensive pt., he could actually win it for his team by being something other than an armadillo. Still not sure I tottaly support the idea, but it certainly is worthy of debate. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-train Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 The object of wrestling, since day one, has been to pin your opponent. Anything less should be considered LESS. TheAncientElder (TAE) The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana. I wear my Fez with pride. i could not agree more. this is why a pin is worth 6, and a regular win worth 3. in essence, the losing wrestler is "rewarded" for not getting pinned, if you consider that 6 points are at stake in every match. i think that the same logic should apply for not getting teched. obviously, if you are teched, you are wrestling a far superior opponent, and if you are not pinned, you should be "rewarded" as such. if i were coaching, i would want my wrestler to get the pin. i never teched a kid in my wrestling career, because i pinned every kid that i could have possibly teched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornton Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 A fall is the ultimate outcome. It may not always display the best wrestler (getting caught in a headlock while leading 14-0...defensive fall with the legs in), but as the officials always tell the top wrestler "work for the fall". If that is not the ultimate goal, why don't they say "work for the tech fall"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood1 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 A fall is the ultimate outcome. It may not always display the best wrestler (getting caught in a headlock while leading 14-0...defensive fall with the legs in), but as the officials always tell the top wrestler "work for the fall". If that is not the ultimate goal, why don't they say "work for the tech fall"? The idea of awarding a pt. to the losing wrestler that scores and offensive pt., does not change any of this. In the example quoted, it would recognize the kid that GOT pinned, (while leading 14-0) was wrestling. It gives a tottaly differant representation of a match when a (1) score is awarded to the loser who scored an offensive pt. If you have a kid go out and "stay off of his back" for 6 mins (running, circling, tieing up, stalling...yawwwnnn, we have all seen it). The match would be scored 6-0. But if that same kid comes out with his team up by 5 (which is why he was just looking to avoid the pin) and knows that although he is facing a tougher opponent and he will most likely lose by some fashion....IF he can manage to SCORE an offensive T or R or NF...he puts himself in a no-lose situation. As a matter of fact, once the offensive wrestler has been scored on he knows that he HAS to work for the fall to even get the tie....it becomes even more urgent! If EVERY guy on a team can go out and get just 1 offensive T or R they could score 14 for their team. It makes the "better" wrestler better, because he now knows that even a slight error coudl result in giving up a T and in such , a team pt. This prepares good wrestlers for tougher matches where a momentary loss of focus, can be the differance in the match! It would be a very differant picture if I looked at a teams dual results and saw that they lost 84-0 than if they lost 84-14. That tells me that they didn't forfeit every match....they didn't go out (unsuccessfully) trying to "stay off their back....they actually came out and wrestled!! The team that loses 84-14 is a bunch of scrappy kids that are getting after it (and highly overmatched) ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FANMAN Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I think that any wrestler who is ahead.. lets say.. by 10, then decides to pin his opponent, well, he should get the 6 pts for the pin, plus an additional 2 pts for displaying his wrestling skills that overmatched his opponent. Or, if a kid is ahead by more than 6, then gets " caught ", I think the pinner shouldn't get the full 6 pts, because he simply " caught " the other guy with it likely not really going to happen. This is all ofcourse nonsense, none of these things should even be considered. Things are fine the way they are, simply give the kid an " atta boy " as he walks off the mat ( for not being pinned and scoring offensively ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I think that any wrestler who is ahead.. lets say.. by 10, then decides to pin his opponent, well, he should get the 6 pts for the pin, plus an additional 2 pts for displaying his wrestling skills that overmatched his opponent. Or, if a kid is ahead by more than 6, then gets " caught ", I think the pinner shouldn't get the full 6 pts, because he simply " caught " the other guy with it likely not really going to happen. This is all ofcourse nonsense, none of these things should even be considered. You're right, this is nonsense. I'm just suggesting giving one team point to the losing wrestler who scores an offensive point. This, on the other hand, is not nonsense. Things are fine the way they are, simply give the kid an " atta boy " as he walks off the mat ( for not being pinned and scoring offensively ). And I'm sure basketball gurus thought basketball was just "fine" before the introduction of the 3-point line or the shot clock. I'm sure many fans loved watching the 4-corners being used as an offensive strategy too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-train Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 And I'm sure basketball gurus thought basketball was just "fine" before the introduction of the 3-point line or the shot clock. I'm sure many fans loved watching the 4-corners being used as an offensive strategy too. ???what are you talking about? "three point line?" "shot clock?" "4 corners?" is this some strange foreign language? ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FANMAN Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 What does basketball have to do with wrestling? The four corners was generally used to control the other team, thru time management. It really isn't much different than the faux stalling that wrestling allows. Those than can ride another while in the lead, half hearted attempts at turning, knowing well an good that it is a controlled stall avoidance. Same for those on the bottom, or in neutral, we've all seen it being done without being called. AKA.." smart wrestling " . The three point line has mostly brought on guards now shooting from 27 feet instead of 17 feet. Shot clock, alot of forced shots, only because of the clock being there. Same as the end of a match, uncontrolled, forced shots that usually end of missing. OOOH.. the excitement. rewarding someone for getting offensive points only to lose? Lets give half court shots 1 for just attempting.. as long as it hits iron.. LMAO. I believe most kids to not care about the 1 team point you'd give them, as most will know an say.. I STILL LOST, which is what they are concerned about. Those that go out an avoid being pinned, knowing there going to lose, aren't all that concerned about the losing part to begin with. So, your back to the ones who care an have some skills to get the offensive points, well.. then there good enough to just win, not get the 1 team point your way. Lets have the offensive losers decide the outcome of a close dual. Tell your team you lost the dual, cause the losers on your team didn't score offensively. That's awesome, good luck with it. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 ???what are you talking about? "three point line?" "shot clock?" "4 corners?" is this some strange foreign language? ??? Umm no actually I was just making the point that basketball, and other sports for that matter, have made radical rule changes to make their sport more appealing. On the other hand, Wrestling folks like to put their head in the sand and say "everything is just fine," like FANMAN said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 First off, paragraphs much??? What does basketball have to do with wrestling? The four corners was generally used to control the other team, thru time management. It really isn't much different than the faux stalling that wrestling allows. Those than can ride another while in the lead, half hearted attempts at turning, knowing well an good that it is a controlled stall avoidance. Same for those on the bottom, or in neutral, we've all seen it being done without being called. AKA.." smart wrestling " . That's why we need to make rule changes to combat this "smart wrestling," because it is boring to watch someone just ride. Riding isn't much different than what the 4 corners was back in the day. I've already made suggestion on ways to prevent wrestlers from just riding. I believe most kids to not care about the 1 team point you'd give them, as most will know an say.. I STILL LOST, which is what they are concerned about. Those that go out an avoid being pinned, knowing there going to lose, aren't all that concerned about the losing part to begin with. If you believe most kids wouldn't care about that team point, then we have a bunch of kids who don't care about the team then. I've always told my wrestlers that all losses aren't the same. One kid losing by a decision, instead of getting pinned, has just as much impact on a meet as all the other kids who do win. So it doesn't all boil down to winning and losing. How much you win/lose by can have just as much impact. Lets have the offensive losers decide the outcome of a close dual. Tell your team you lost the dual, cause the losers on your team didn't score offensively. That's awesome, good luck with it. : I'm beginning to think that you don't have a real grasp of how a dual meet is won. Actually the whole team determines a close dual, not the offensive losers. Like I've stated before, the guys who can limit the bonus team points in a loss have just as much impact as the guys who do win. Sometimes it's strategically correct to tell a kid, who you know is outclassed by his opponent, to just not get pinned or give up as few bonus points as he can. Adding that 1 team point can only make the dual meets that much more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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