SunDevils

3 minutes ago, FCFIGHTER170 said:

My boy Tim is older than Steven, his teams were tough too in the 90s.

That's right, it is Greg Bradley. All of the Bradley's were great. 

No particular order best teams never to win a state title (looking at total history) would be New Palestine, New Castle, Roncalli, Beech Grove, and Hobart - I am 100% certain I am forgetting a few teams, my apologies.

Sorry I know I am missing a few wrestlers off the top of my head but the Hobart teams with Galka, Cosgrove, Dillon, and Francisco Porras was built for a tournament format. But ran into just super solid teams from top to bottom like Mishawaka, Lawrence North, EMD, and Perry Meridian if memory serves correctly. 

Beech Grove in the 90's & early 2000's were an extremely tough team. But specifically the Steven Bradley led teams were tough. Solid from top to bottom and runner up to EMD one year (in the state series not team state). But in 2001/2 they had Baker, Price, Gibson, Hobbs, Harris, Ryan Williams, one of the Bradley's (Tim???) and others. 

What incentives does Cathedral have for joining a conference? At least when I was in high school they were independent. I assuming that is still the same. 

Unlike many other states Indiana lets everyone into play off tournament. Cathedral can continue to play their independent schedule in football and compete against top notch out-of-state competition and in-state competition.  It would seemingly be a foolish move to join a conference regardless of who anchors it. 

For a team like Cathedral they shouldn't join unless forced. 

Beech Grove had the Bradley (3) & Harris (2) brothers each family carrying at least 1 state title and multiple state placements. 

The Howe brothers at Hanover Central. I feel like anytime you have Andrew Howe it warrants your name being on the list - at this point still in my opinion the best overall wrestler in Indiana history. 

The Humprey's of LN. Quite good as well. 

However, I feel like the Lee's at EMD (assuming they each wrestled a full high school career) or the Tsirtsis brothers have to be the top siblings overall. 

2 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

All great points that are being brought up time and time again on this board. But… just like the stats and data that keeps being repeated year in and year out… What’s a plan or suggestion to fix it??? 20 people can tell me that my roof is leaking. But… until I get off my ass and fix it or hire an expert, I’m going to get dripped on. Your points and ideas are great. What are you and everyone else going to do to implement it??? I’m in… just tell me what I need to do to help. I’m doing what i can in my community. Not a single practice goes by that we don’t mention grades. If we don’t come up with viable suggestions or solutions, it’s all just chat. 

I agree wholeheartedly. Unless the IHSAA like the NCAA is forced to relinquish some of its power then nothing will change. Since that would solve two of the major issues - travel and transfer. 

13 hours ago, Mattyb said:

I will bite.
 

Participation in most contact sports is down. It is Part of the world that we are living in.

 

I think we are all doing our best to promote and grow the sport. I can’t think of one person that is trying to bring the sport down. Nobody I know that is involved with coaching our sport is doing it for the money. We just gotta keep doing what we are doing. Helping kids set goals and helping them get there. 

 

Heck.. the last program I was at forfeited HWT the whole year. The school was top 12 in enrollment in the state. Just couldn’t get a big man. They still took runners up in the team competition at individual state. 

 

With all of this said…. we already started a frosh / Soph state. If you really think classing will help…  it’s simple. Start a class state. Run it the same time as Frosh / soph state. If that is really what you think will save our sport, then let’s do it. Does the medal have to say IHSAA? The dual state champ award does not say IHSAA. Is that less important? If so… why?

 

if being named a state champ is the only way that we coaches and parents can keep numbers up and keep kids wrestling and we aren’t able to give them any other goals to keep them going… then let’s make a class championship. 
 

Btw… not looking to get involved in a debate. I don’t have any cool stats or data. You guys will just fire off stuff and I will have no good response. With that said… I concede to losing the class wrestling debate. Just want to fire off an idea to help. 

I am not interested in a class wrestling debate nor did I mention it.  Whether or not I believe classing would help or not is irrelevant. There are other issues that seem more fixable than revamping a entire system at this point and time. 

For example, 1) travel restrictions - allow our athletes to compete at major national tournaments; 2) coaching - unless everyone wants to pretend all coaches are created equal; 3) open districts - if a senior at Brownsburg or Perry can't make varsity why not let them go to another smaller school unprohibited which would help the other team; 4) cost - off season tournaments and club wrestling can get expensive some families can simply not afford it - develop a scholarship program to help subsidize the cost; 5) scholarship opportunities - I work in higher education at major institutions and the scholarship dollars for wrestling are not there compared to the obvious - football and basketball.

Educating athletes on value of GPA, how to apply for merit based scholarships, how to choose a relevant major, and optimizing exposure is vital. However, it is just assumed the best way to increase exposure is national tournaments. 

I agree athletic participation is down, especially in contact sports. And wrestling above all else is the most difficult on an athlete mentally and physically. But there are solutions that don't involve the "c word". 

I guess those 42 teams should have just gotten better and put in more work right? That’s usually the argument made on these boards. 
 

I agree with what Y2 and others have already said it is easy to look at top tier talent and think “things are great” but it then makes it easier to ignore other shortcomings. 

NJ, PA, IL, and OH are universally considered to have more depth and talent - national rankings prove this. Therefore,  generally speaking more talent/depth regardless of tournament format equals a more difficult tournament. 
 

My initial thought is don’t conflate the ideas of degree of difficulty with margin for error. 
 

I guess if you see a lot more DNP and 6-8 state placers start to dominate national tournaments or IHPO then your point might be stronger. 
 

Indiana is a strong wrestling state and getting better all the time. But the depth still isn’t comparable to some of its neighbors. 

39 minutes ago, SWINfan said:

 

Snyder has a bye and will face Kollin Moore in best 2 of 3 at 97kg.  Same for Burroughs and Dake at 74kg. 

 

Thanks I completely missed that. 

Obviously Snyder is not listed in this tourney. But legitimately asking, can Gable give Snyder a run for his money? Or is Snyder still the odds on favorite? I would assume Snyder is the favorite in that match. But just legitimately curious. 

Isn’t Kelvin Jackson from first LSU then Iowa State? Isn’t he a Michigan high school athlete? 

I’m not sure where Nick Lee ranks, but he is stellar. 
 

Taking in high school and college career combined it seems pretty obvious that Andrew Howe is number 1. And he might have earned gold if not for Burroughs. 
 

There is a strong argument for Parris being top 5 given his high school, college, and international accomplishments thus far- and if it weren’t for Gable he is easily a national champ, possibly 2x over. 
 

As it sits right now I’d go 1) Howe; 2) Escebedo; 3) Nick Lee; 4) Parris; 5) Tsirtsis. 
 

But you still have a lot of great talent out there that may finish their college careers out and enter that top 5 category: Joe Lee, Brayton Lee, Chad Red (assuming he uses a 5th year), Micic, and Davison. Please forgive me, I know I am missing some top notch talent. And you can’t forget Reece Humphrey if you take high school and college career combined. 

2 hours ago, 08grad said:

I don’t understand the class wrestling argument. Look at the number of small schools that dominated the 1-8 spots on all weight classes at the individual state tournament. School size doesn’t effect our sport as much- football, basketball, and track I get, but it will only hurt wrestling in Indiana. 

Lack of personal understanding (or preference) doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be considered. 
 

Also, why does classed track make sense? If you are fast, you are fast regardless of school size. Or if you can jump, then you can jump. And anyone can train by themselves sprinting or running, right? They don’t need teammates to get better since it is an individual sport.... maybe the larger schools have better resources to help those track athletes run better? Like better access to elite coaches and better weight rooms. But then again, why class anything ever? 
 

Don’t rule out potentially good proposals- especially those with good intentions and inviting conversation via a simple lack of understanding. 

2 hours ago, Jayruss said:

Is it me or does MD seemed cursed with these bad draws? Hayhurst vs Watson in semi state, Boarman being on the same side as Mendez, Egli makes a statement by pinning Coy and draws into returning champ Cottey, Ross possibly meeting Lemley in the second round, Parkinson drawing Walker in the first round last year, and the list goes on.... If I’m MD I’m razing the gymnasium to see if there’s a goat buried under the gym floor!

95% of the time it would seem that the bad draw is drawing into an EMD wrestler as opposed to vice versa. I'm sure most everyone else in the state isn't happy to draw into an EMD wrestler. Especially, when it was the Lee factory for about 6-7 years. 

Which speaks to the greatness of said program. 

14 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

so are you saying schools should teach wrestling seeding meeting protocols instead of geometry or algebra?

Not necessarily saying that. However, you wouldn’t receive a protest from me.

What’s even more remarkable is some coaches couldn’t solve a proof (geometry) or complete basic algebra but a majority can seed a bracket.

I really like this decision. I think wrestlers should pick the most elite academic and wrestling rich program they can get into. Northwestern should top the list of most students - especially those in the Midwest.  

I hope he joins the Sun Devils but all things considered I wouldn't blame him at all if he goes to Princeton! The long-term benefits after wrestling will be amazing. Granted he will likely have a career in wresting, just like Andrew Howe, but nonetheless going to Princeton is great decision if wrestling doesn't work out (heaven forbid). 

1 hour ago, Mattyb said:

And....
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker.amp.html

 

Looks like Oxford is in the lead.
 

Regardless... I think that we will have a vaccine before spring. With this said.... people on Fox News will have you believe that we are going to have one next month. People on CNN will have you believe that we will have one in 2022. It is what it is. I stand by my prediction of a pre-spring vaccine. 

I hope you're right since I do not want to see another college season impacted. 

8 hours ago, Mattyb said:

I think there will be a vaccine by then. I assume that others believe the same thing.
 

Here is my educated guess on how things may go. I think that the IHSAA will in fact start the football season. As soon as a handful of players from a few teams test positive Covid (notice that I did not say contract), the football season will be ended or postponed. Football season goes through a November and we all know what also happens in November. We all see that Covid has been and will be further politicalized. If you don’t believe that... just watch Fox News (If you want the republican side) or CNN (if you want the democrat side) today. I tend to watch both, and have came to the conclusion that both sides have completely gone crazy!  I’m not here to say which side is right or wrong... I’m just stating the obvious. Politics will come into play. 
 

Bottom line.. until we get a vaccine and the election is over.... I wouldn’t plan on having a season. Again, it’s just a very educated guess from watching our country fall apart everyday in the media. I hope that I’m wrong. 

I hope you are correct, however, currently Japan is leading the charge on making a vaccine. And started testing it on June 30. However, but it will not be released to public (pending successful testing) until July 2021. Unless American medicine or UK medicine has a massive breakthrough a vaccine released to the public this year is unlikely. 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/06/30/national/science-health/japan-first-coronavirus-vaccine-clinical-test-starts/

45 minutes ago, doctorWrestling said:

All I am saying is that it seems fair for a state or the NCAA to have to disclose to a program that you are considering cutting the program before doing it behind closed doors so that it cannot possibly be saved.  I think your image/logo is for ASU - who cut wrestling but then did fund raise and bring it back.  It seems if that is possible that it would be possible to save a program before it is actually cut.  I think the motivation to save a program would open pockets that may not give nearly as much.  

ASU programs being dropped wasn't a surprise. There were a lot of factors surrounding that decision and fundraising is not what continues the program. The university president instituted many changes, including a coaches salary cap, relatively speaking it focused mostly on football. But most institutions won't go to such measures. Part of the reason some of these programs fail is due to the absurd coaches salaries. 

22 hours ago, rookie78 said:

Fox Sports Radio, a couple weeks ago, was talking about how Power 5 conference schools play their "cupcakes" during football.  The payout the cupcakes get, according to Fox Sports Radio,  pretty much finances a majority of the sports that they carry. 

And those pay outs come from the Conferences and TV networks- not from the universities. A delayed football season, would mean less revenue generated among conferences. Which means less profit sharing between each team in the conference. And “cupcakes” (or small schools with less resources) as well as major universities with programs on the fringe financially would be forced to stop. However, the good news is, as of right now, the PAC 12 only foresees a delay in practice schedule and condensing pre-season workout programs. Which means football season theoretically is on course to start as planned in the Fall. 

4 hours ago, Mattyb said:

Most D1 colleges make the vast majority of there annual athletic budget work with football money. Most get some sort of tv money also. I’m telling you guys. If some D1 schools don’t bring in that money for football. Wrestling and other non-money makers will take a hit. To keep thing even, they may have to cut a girls sport also (to keep title nine compliant). I hope I’m wrong. But... would not be surprised to see a few programs shut down. 

As someone who works for a major institution and has worked for many major institutions trust me college football money for a vast majority of institutions is fools gold. If it were not for profit sharing from conferences most programs even within the BIG 10 and 12, as well as the PAC-12, and ACC would not be operating in the black. Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, and Nebraska football are carrying more than just their own programs. They are carrying the entire B1G with Indiana and Michigan State basketball both contributing a lot financially. The only conference in football where a majority of their college football programs operate in the black is the SEC. 

Programs that were already on the fringe of being cut, or considered being cut, will now likely be cut if there is a delay in the start of the football season.  Or substantial revenue lost from people unwilling to fill the stadiums. 

7 hours ago, doctorWrestling said:

I wish the state's governing body or the NCAA would at least say that before a sport can be dropped for financial reasons, the team has to be given an opportunity to raise the needed funds before just being given a death penalty.  Many times it seems that AD's operate in secret to cut programs that could have been funded if the coaches had been given an opportunity.  I could see the same happening in high school.  It is complete BS but not sure how it is stopped.

In the case of colleges, the NCAA doesn't drop a program, only in extreme circumstances (and even then Penn State football just faced numerous sanctions). Side note: Title IX is one of the reasons Penn States football team did not get dropped because if they would have dropped the football team then 80 scholarships for female athletes would have also been removed. They can issue postseason bans and even limit the number of scholarships but they do not drop a program.

Also, coaches and athletes at programs that are smaller typically realize they are on a year to year shoe string budget since most college football programs operate in the red, not the black, despite what the NCAA would lead everyone to believe. Additionally, at the college level fundraising occurs every single year (and if you pay attention to your undergraduate/graduate universities call campaigns, realistically every quarter). A last ditch effort to fund raise and save a program on the fringe for one year is like utilizing a band-aid when stitches are absolutely necessary. 

1 hour ago, Mattyb said:

Pretty sure that we won’t see summer wrestling. Lots of states are extending stay at home orders until June. 
 

For college wrestling, they are all praying for football to kickoff this season. If there is no football, you WILL see lots of colleges going the Old Dominion route. As I see it... that’s may be the biggest impact of this pandemic. 

The NCAA and athletic conferences are wise to postpone making a decision about football. They need to wait as long as they can before making the decision. Same is true of high schools. However, I can tell you the fear within the PAC 12 is that a few schools might pull the trigger early on this decision (prematurely in my estimation) in which case it will cause a snowball effect forcing the rest of the conferences hand.