IntegratedCarp Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 ISWA tournaments are going to start ramping up soon. I am very excited, but also a little worried. I grew up in Indiana wrestling ISWA. But I lived in Michigan from 1996-2008. My sons wrestled MYWAY up there. When I moved back to Indiana in 2008, I was shocked at how long tournaments took cause of pairings. One of my sons is now talking about not wrestling ISWA tourneys because it just kills a whole Saturday. Is the ISWA going to demand that all the regular tournaments use matside pairings? ISWA can't let this continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntegratedCarp Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Here is how they run tournaments in Michigan (myway) and Wisconsin (usa wrestling). PeeWee, Batam, Intermediate 9-12:30. Novice, Schoolboy, Cadet 12:30-4. My sons generally wrestle 5 matches in two hours at these tournaments. Very rare we are ever at the school more than 3 hours total. The boys are wrestling about every 20 minutes. And these are large tournaments or 500 wrestlers. The ISWA leaders need to be authoritative and modernize pairings. Heck, if the ISWA ever wanted to undercut HYWAY, the manner in which to do so would be take the matside pairings & double start time (9am/12:3opm) and make it even better and faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 i have to agree.....mat side pairings that are done at the myway tournaments are so smooth running compared to the way the iswa does it.....i'm not sure as to why they don't adopt this method....surely they have considered it?.....we were just at the middle school state and it runs on the old pairings method......overall things kept moving but i do know they had computer issues that shut down a number of times which did slow things down.....with mat side pairings, this is a thing of the past.....you're on one mat all day, you always know your bout numbers and the wrestling never stops.....i feel that the iswa should look closer at this method.....as a parent, i would prefer it as it gets us home quicker....and i know the kids don't exactly like sitting around all day waiting in between matches..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I have seen mat side pairing works great. However, I have also seen them fail just as miserably at running an event smoothly as traditional pairing. I think a lot of it comes from having a well trained and prepared staff helping at the event more than anything else. So if the ISWA is going with a push for mat side pairing it may work out great if those running the events are comfortable and prepared for how it will work. I've even suggested on more than one occasion at the traditional larger events have two separate starts times for two different sets of age groups. That way they have less of a crowd and chaos at one time, but end up with same attendance in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntegratedCarp Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 I have seen mat side pairing works great. However, I have also seen them fail just as miserably at running an event smoothly as traditional pairing. I think a lot of it comes from having a well trained and prepared staff helping at the event more than anything else. So if the ISWA is going with a push for mat side pairing it may work out great if those running the events are comfortable and prepared for how it will work. I've even suggested on more than one occasion at the traditional larger events have two separate starts times for two different sets of age groups. That way they have less of a crowd and chaos at one time, but end up with same attendance in the end. In Michigan it's mostly high school wrestlers running the matside pairings. Generally, it is one pairing person per 2 mats. And it is challenging to mess up a line bracket event. Indy Nationals and Folkstyle state both have a double start times for specific groups around 8am/1 pm. That is wonderful! However, the ISWA needs to push the double start down to our regular tournaments, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The ISWA allows local clubs to run their tournaments as they want to (with a few legal restrictions). Many already use matside pairings and others are catching on. ISWA State tournaments have been using staggered start times for years. It's not a new idea, but I agree that large local tournaments could benefit from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntegratedCarp Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 The ISWA allows local clubs to run their tournaments as they want to (with a few legal restrictions). Many already use matside pairings and others are catching on. ISWA State tournaments have been using staggered start times for years. It's not a new idea, but I agree that large local tournaments could benefit from it. This is all excellent news! Perhaps it is just some of the tournaments I have went to that refused to use matside. However, I have only been to two locations (Penn & Jimtown) that used matside pairings. I mean, where they actually have a pairing person near the mat and not in some backroom a mile away. I guess my core suggestion is the ISWA should no longer allow local clubs to pair a tournament however the want. Personally, I would like to see it like Michigan or Wisconsin, where you follow the matside & staggered start, or otherwise the event is not sanctioned. The ISWA lays down the law in whole bunch of areas with coaches, clubs and wrestlers. The pairings people should be no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The ISWA has been making changes. It's been slower than some would like, but it can't all be instantly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Here is how they run tournaments in Michigan (myway) and Wisconsin (usa wrestling). PeeWee, Batam, Intermediate 9-12:30. Novice, Schoolboy, Cadet 12:30-4. My sons generally wrestle 5 matches in two hours at these tournaments. Very rare we are ever at the school more than 3 hours total. The boys are wrestling about every 20 minutes. And these are large tournaments or 500 wrestlers. The ISWA leaders need to be authoritative and modernize pairings. Heck, if the ISWA ever wanted to undercut HYWAY, the manner in which to do so would be take the matside pairings & double start time (9am/12:3opm) and make it even better and faster. Just go to HYWAY tournaments if thats what you prefer. I really don't see the ISWA changing much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntegratedCarp Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Just go to HYWAY tournaments if thats what you prefer. I really don't see the ISWA changing much. A) I want to stay loyal to the ISWA. They helped me out a lot as a kid, both with wrestling and personally. HYWAY has hardly any tournaments. C) ISWA competition is just much better. D) Perhaps I'm overly optimistic, but I think ISWA will change this year. They have to or else HYWAY has the potential to explode in growth like MYWAY. E) Living in Michigan taught me having one organization is best. In Michigan, MYWAY pretty much wiped out USA Wrestling Michigan. There is almost nothing left but a few poorly attend freestyle tournaments. I would rather have ISWA oversee all three styles. But if the ISWA leadership fails to assert their authority over matside pairings and staggered start times at local tournaments, I think they are making a decades long error. This can't be something they say "Next year" about any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I really don't see the ISWA changing much. And you know this from all of the open ISWA board meetings that you've attended where you've listened to the many discussions about these issues, right? The ISWA Board wants to know what wrestlers, parents, coaches, and officials feel is important. Changes have been made, but you cannot expect it all to happen overnight. There is a fine line between mandating clubs to run their own tournament a certain way and encouraging proven practices that improve a tournament. There are ISWA pairers who are willing to show clubs how to run matside pairings correctly and efficiently. The ISWA offers clinics for coaches, officials, pairers, and clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 And you know this from all of the open ISWA board meetings that you've attended where you've listened to the many discussions about these issues, right? The ISWA Board wants to know what wrestlers, parents, coaches, and officials feel is important. Changes have been made, but you cannot expect it all to happen overnight. There is a fine line between mandating clubs to run their own tournament a certain way and encouraging proven practices that improve a tournament. There are ISWA pairers who are willing to show clubs how to run matside pairings correctly and efficiently. The ISWA offers clinics for coaches, officials, pairers, and clubs. Changes should be proactive not reactive. Why is it taking so long to make changes? Not enough support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLH300gm Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I agree changes should be proactive, to wait and hear from the parents, wrestlers and coaches is a poorly educated statement. Just go to a tournament and see the havoc that is wrought while people are waiting and waiting and waiting. Open board meetings, don't expect too much too soon. Sounds like a govermental agency just wait things will get better we promise, change is slowwwwwwwwww!!!!!! I agree with the cat from Michigan decades long mistake if you don't get infront of the issues versus getting run over by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoopy Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Every line bracket tournament I've worked has had at least one parent: a. Show up late, with a bus load b. not come at all after home weigh ins c. fill the paper work in improperly (Like wrong age) d. "What no true second, I only lost once!" I like matside but see themerits of vertical pairing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntegratedCarp Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 a. Show up late, with a bus load - -> That can happen at any tourney. Has nothing to do with matside pairing. b. not come at all after home weigh ins--> See above. c. fill the paper work in improperly (Like wrong age)--> See above. d. "What no true second, I only lost once!" --> I hear some people say this to. Ignore 'em. Look, imop there is no valid reason to hold up people for an entire day just because a moronic parent shows up late or a pairing person is unwilling to change their process from 20 years ago. I am hopeful the ISWA will assert their authority now. I am optimistic because I think most things the ISWA does, they do well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoopy Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I see no reason to be called "imop". Tournaments have been held up by table help meeting and officials meetings, etc. The pairing room is ready before the tournament committee many times. Can I pair at matside, yes. Do I prefer a quiet room, yes. Do I officiate, yes. Are there problems ,yes. The Rochester HYWA meet was held up by no shows. It happens With matside, the time between matches rule is many times ignored. This could lead to cancelled insurance. I really hope all of you commenting pair, officiate, weigh in, do awards, hang walll charts or something. otherwise, as they say, you are part of the problem. Besides if you are active the day may be a more positive experience. Don't say "I coach my kids", without those of us that work the meet your kid has nowhere to wrestle. A traveling tournament committee was thought of 30 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntegratedCarp Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 I see no reason to be called "imop". Don't get out much, do ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4everfan Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I have been working tournaments for over 15 years. I would not want to see all tournaments ran the same. You really need to talk to the tournament directors and see what they want. One of the main reasons some of the tournaments do not do matside pairings is due to facility restrictions. Not all schools have the large gyms in which this is possible. As we all are away of, parents, wrestlers and their families all crowd around the mats when it is almost time for them to wrestle. The floor can become conjested and make it impossible for people to walk through or see the matches. Another option is "same mat" concept instead of matside pairing. Again though you can get the conjestion around the mat. When you are hosting a tournament you need to make sure you also have enough experienced people who can actually do the pairings. This is true not only in matside pairings but in all pairing situations. It is extremely hard to find people who are willing to help out with this. Some advantages to an actually pairing room would be that you can have just a few pairing people to run the pairings of the entire tournament. It also keeps people from being on the gym floor. There are also many friendships formed while working tournaments. I personally know how much my friends mean to me and I look forward to being with them during the wrestling season. They will be my friends for life. Tournaments can be ran however the director wants them ran. Thank you to the ISWA for allowing this freedom to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekocottonball Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I have been working tournaments for over 15 years. I would not want to see all tournaments ran the same. You really need to talk to the tournament directors and see what they want. One of the main reasons some of the tournaments do not do matside pairings is due to facility restrictions. Not all schools have the large gyms in which this is possible. As we all are away of, parents, wrestlers and their families all crowd around the mats when it is almost time for them to wrestle. The floor can become conjested and make it impossible for people to walk through or see the matches. Blah, blah.... Thank you to the ISWA for allowing this freedom to us. Your ignorance is so astounding that most of it isn't worth responding to. However, I will say small gyms are no problem if you run mat side pairing correctly. Geez, get out of Indiana and watch a match or two at a well ran tournament. Sorry, but you are clearly a person with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. And the status will get the iswa in even more trouble with its customers. Really, we are supposed to keep a pairings room so that two 50 year old gals can have a friendly afternoon chat and will be lifetime pals. Give me a break. Get a dog. In the mean time, join the 21st century. Dumbest post of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
italianmom Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 ISWA is making changes according to what we have been hearing in the past from parents. We are always listening and trying to make accommodations in order for our tournaments to run smooth and efficiently. Matside pairings are popular in the Central Indiana and surrounding areas with most clubs north and south not appearing ready to take the plunge. The ISWA has offered to go to local club tournaments to assist their pairings area with the matside pairings. The phone is not ringing off the hook. As previously posted, some local clubs prefer to run their tournaments their way still following sanction guidelines. People want change, but few are stepping up to help in the pairings area. At a tournament where there is a pairing room a handful of pairers can run the tournament. At a matside pairing tournament a pairer is needed at every mat. If you are a competent pairer, one pairer can run two mats. There are fewer pairers in the State of Indiana today than there were in previous years. Who is willing to step up and learn? Line bracketing is easy. Vertical pairing is challenging but can be easily mastered. For the parents who would like to see this change happen quicker, please email Jean Whetsone at jeanne752@yahoo.com or Pat Culp at patculp@hotmail.com and let them know you would like to be a part of the solution. They are the head pairing officials for the ISWA. ISWA is planning on having matside pairings at all of our State Tournaments. The more pairers we have the better the tournament will run. Have your club's head pairer contact one of these ladies. Obviously MYWAY's and HYWAY's parents have stepped up, where are the ISWA's parents? See you at the State tournaments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogihof Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Help me out a little - where can you find out how to do matside pairings? I'm talking about the how to's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
italianmom Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Help me out a little - where can you find out how to do matside pairings? I'm talking about the how to's. There will be a pairings clinic dealing primarily with matside pairings at the ISWA Little Guy State tournament at Ben Davis on Friday March 11th from 7-9pm. If you would like more information prior to that clinic, email me at rjschoettle@sbcglobal.net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbravefan1 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I am a 62 year old pairing person. I have been doing this since back in the 70"s. I will gladly bow out and let you take over for me and I know I am not alone. It is time for everyone that knows how to run a tournament to step up and do it. Thanks for your time but no thanks for all the time I have put into this sport. Helen Mankey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoopy Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 As the experienced people have said, come on in and be part of the solution. You must not help much or many of us would know you. The dumbest post ever appears to have come from a person that is part of the problem. Like they said go watch how a good tournament is run. Most have commented about watching, and seeing. When they start saying "When we worked this meet we did this, I'll listen. As far as 50 year old ladies, I'm sure all of them would welcome new help of either gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I am a 62 year old pairing person. I have been doing this since back in the 70"s. I will gladly bow out and let you take over for me and I know I am not alone. It is time for everyone that knows how to run a tournament to step up and do it. Thanks for your time but no thanks for all the time I have put into this sport. Helen Mankey 62....what did you stop having birthdays 20 years ago??? Love ya Helen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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