Y2CJ41 Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 This is a hot topic in the refereeing world and we wanted your input as fans and wrestlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood2 Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Why, the fans still 'booooo' in the same color? Is there research that calls look better in gray? Why would you make people pay for a NEW SET of shirts when the economy is forcing everyone to thier limit? Would gray shirts reduce the price of gas to get to the meet, or reduce my heating bills? I have 20 free striped shirts for anyone who wants them. Just look at who has a stake in the profit and you will find the force driving this converstation. The rest of us are happy putting our hard earned refereeing check where it does a lot more good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I could care less what they wear as long as it looks half way professional and they can do their job well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood2 Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Gray shirt fact: The IHSAA has said no to gray shirts two years in a row... Again, what is the value is this conversation? Unless of course you have an interest in revenue created by the gray shirt ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Just look at who has a stake in the profit and you will find the force driving this converstation. Not familiar with this topic. Who is leading the charge for this change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinwrestlersmom Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Soooooo let me get this straight , being in grey will make them make alll the right calls alllll the time? ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood3 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 As long as they all wear the same shirt, and I know what that shirt looks like. I don't want to be mistaken for a ref while I'm at the concession stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlittlejohn Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Just look at who has a stake in the profit and you will find the force driving this converstation. Not familiar with this topic. Who is leading the charge for this change? Two years ago the National Federation of High Schools (NFHS) approved the optional use of gray pinstriped shirts as part of the official wrestling referee's uniform. The IHSAA elected not to allow this option for it's wrestling officials and has stood pat on this issue the past two years. This past week wrestling officials across the state were contacted via e-mail and asked to vote in consideration of recommending the approval of this option by the IHSAA. The overwhelming response by the officials was in favor of this option. 86% Yes 2% No 12% No Preference The IHSAA's primary concern in approving such a change is consistancy and uniformity in appearance by it's referees across the state. At the same time this holds true for equal reasoning across the nation and in my experience working national and multi-state events this past year it was evident that Indiana remains one of the very few states in which referees are still wearing the black and white "zebra" shirts. In fact, I was mildly embarassed when I arrived at the USAW/Asics Folkstyle Nationals in Cedar Falls with only my black and whites stripes (the required uniform in Indiana) and found that everyone else was wearing gray pinstripes. Fortunatly a fellow official loaned me one of his spares. So as you can see, there is no profit driven force behind this discussion; nor, an evil underlying agenda, it is simply a matter of following the lead of the NFHS and attemping to accept change for the sake of consistancy and uniformity at a state and national level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood3 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 It's good to see littlejohn bring some facts and research to the discussion. I was starting to think that this was just a debate about fashion. Although, I am on board with those that say it doesn't matter, as long as there is some sort of uniform, I will oppose the gray with pinstripes. You see, for many years the black and white stripes have been a symbol to the officiating community. They remind us that the rules are the rules. They're black and white, with crisp, well defined edges. This alternative shirt consists of shades of gray. I've always said that I don't care how a ref officiates, as long as he's consistent. Forget the gray areas. Was that a takedown or not? Do we want a sport where someone gets a point and a half for an almost takedown? Besides, the vertical stripes have a slimming effect on our referees and hide the effects of a decade or more of cutting weight before retiring to a life of internet forum posts, cold adult beverages, and post meet chicken wings. Maybe all of the other states are going with gray shirts, but this is Indiana. We were one of the last states to switch to daylight savings time, and many still oppose it. Like mom used to say, "If all of your friends jumped off of a bridge, would you jump too?". Don't let your mothers down. Fight the conformist movement that is gray shirts. I refereed for a short time, and I'll never forget my first weigh-in. After the the wrestlers left the locker room, and the first coach had already been kicked out another referee looked at me and said, "These colors don't run. Don't you ever forget that.". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhayes Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I officiated the Illinois/Indiana duals this year. Indiana official were in stripes and Illinois in Gray. I talked with the Illinois officials coordinator about the shirts. He said they made it manditory in Illinois to wear gray after the first year of it being optional. In that first year the unsportsmanlike calls dropped 40%. The stripes have a stigma attached that is not needed. There has to be a reason that several of the larger wrestling states and college went to gray. I don't want to spend the extra money either but if it helps improve the relationship with officials and coaches (even a little) I am all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Is this what all the fuss is about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaner2 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Foregt the grey. I'm all for Lime Green with Bright Pink Polka Pots. Nationwide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Foregt the grey. I'm all for Lime Green with Bright Pink Polka Pots. Nationwide. Some soccer organizations have had a market on the crazy colors for years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingMan Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Wow, I am struggling with this topic on this message board. The color of an official's shirt should in no way reflect their performance or their perception of performance. How about Indiana sticking with the stripes and having those official do the jobs that i have to believe they love to do? The only complaint I have about Indiana officials is that there have been instances where fathers and siblings officiate their family member's matches...that is what needs to change, not their shirts. There are specific names in which I won't list, but many of you may know. There is a wrestler whose sister has the stripes and has officiated her brothers matches...some of you may know who I am talking about, I will just leave it at that. Is there a Queer Eye for the Straight Guy fan out there who is looking at Indiana wrestling for a make-over? Truth be told, anyone involve in the match knows who the official is as well as who they are linked with, if at all. It is the parents and coaches responsibility to teach respect. Period. If parents don't realize who the official is, when there are only two wrestlers on the mat, then they need to get a bit of an education themselves. That education is not the official's responsibility, it's theirs. Also, do we think it's a good idea to have high school wrestler's who have their offiating credentials (which I respect) officate high school matches? I have asked this quesitons to officials and have yet to have received and answer. If you are a high school wrestler, with your officiating credentials, can you officiate high school, USA/ISWA state matches? I have had no response on these questions. But I think these question are a little better than the color of a shirt an official wears. Sorry for being so rude on this topic, but there are better things to discuss. I have to say, my son who is a wrestler ( and we are talking about wrestler's here not parents - right?) is color blind. He couldn't care less about what the ref is wearing. He cares about fair and consistent calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinwrestlersmom Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Thats kinda what I'm getting at . What difference does the color of shirt make, as long as they make the calls consistently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlittlejohn Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 The only complaint I have about Indiana officials is that there have been instances where fathers and siblings officiate their family member's matches...that is what needs to change, not their shirts. There are specific names in which I won't list, but many of you may know. There is a wrestler whose sister has the stripes and has officiated her brothers matches...some of you may know who I am talking about, I will just leave it at that. I am not familiar with anyone in the examples you've given. But, I will tell you that this should be avoided whenever possible. If there are multiple officials working an event there is no reason why this should occur. However, I will also tell you that the number of officials is extremely lacking across the state. There seems to be a great number of officials in the stands and in the corners but very few on the mats. I have found myself in dual meet situations where I did officiate my sons matches and obviously the coaches and AD's were aware of my potential conflict, but were comfortable with my integrity and pursued my services due to the inavailability of other officials in our area. So the two primary points here are integrity and the number of willing, able & available officials. A great axium holds true here, as well; if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. (sorry if that came across rude) Also, do we think it's a good idea to have high school wrestler's who have their offiating credentials (which I respect) officate high school matches? I have asked this quesitons to officials and have yet to have received and answer. If you are a high school wrestler, with your officiating credentials, can you officiate high school, USA/ISWA state matches? I have had no response on these questions. But I think these question are a little better than the color of a shirt an official wears. High school wrestlers may not officiate high school matches. A person must be 18 years old and out of high school in order to apply for an official?s license from the IHSAA. However, high school wrestlers may and are strongly encouraged to officiate USA/ISWA events. They do not officiate at the ISWA Folkstyle State Finals (we use only licensed contracted IHSAA officials for whose service?s we pay). However, they are utilized at the ISWA Freestyle & Greco State Finals out of necessity, again, because of the lack of adult officials willing or able to offer their services. In truth, it is beneficial for the kids to learn officiating skills and mechanics. It helps them to better understand the sport and helps them with their mat awareness and knowledge during competition. However, they should not have to be utilized at state final events, but, until more adults are willing to step up and offer their services, we will continue to be forced to utilize kids when necessary. I know Mark Mundy (ISWA Freestyle & Greco Mat Officials Director) mark-mundy@hotmail.com would love to hear from anyone (preferably adults) interested in becoming a mat official. As I ljames946@aol.com would be for anyone interested in becoming a folkstyle official. In fact there will be a Folkstyle Referee?s clinic @ 12 noon, following the ISWA Annual Meeting, @ Lawrence North High School next Sunday September 13th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingMan Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Great feedback on the last comments. And, I agree that there are situations in which "Dad's/Coaches" are on the mat officiating, and many times they don't want to be there, but are merely stepping up. Unfortunately, I have seen several instances where the sister is the official on her brother's match (more than a couple of times). And, he is right about the solution to the problem, quite complaining if you have no solution. I know many coaches/dad's/officials who have either excused themselves or at least made the connection known to the opponents. That is doing it correctly. But it doesn't happen all of the time. Personally, we are sending three of our family members in November to get their credentials. I REALLY appreciate the input as to what high school kids can and cannot officiate in, as I have such questions into the "Ask the Official" portion of this site. But once again, the question is do the stripes matter? If you teach your kid's to respect authority...does it matter what that authority is wearing? Thanks for being honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stall me out Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 do the colour of the shirts matter? as an official yes it does most strip shirts are grey at the end of the day any way why not start there the strips are hard to keep clean most shoools do such good job of keeping there mats clean bethween rounds lol fans wakin gon the mats with there streat shoes the strips pick up all that dirt and show it most sports are moving towards the grey for many of the rreasons littlejohn stated on a fashion note i think we look beter in them and thinner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood2 Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Two more thoughts: 1) If coaches and fans don't respect the guy in the shirt they won't respect the color. 2) I have seen the 'official' IHSAA response to this whole survey while I was the chairman of the officials association. The IHSAA has no interest in 'group consensus'. They have made up their mind. Know your role LJ & others. Unless your on the pay role at the IHSAA office you are embarassing those of us who realize that we have a job to do, make the right call and get off the mat. Gray doesn't equal respect, nor does petty arguments from people who have no role in the outcome. As an administrator, a fan of the sport, and a once respected member of the officials brotherhood I would respectfully ask the officials to keep this conversation within your fellow officials and not spread the debate as if it were a public vote. The embarassment of our people bickering and the IHSAA's irritation over the whole debate is not helping your cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Apparently this is a bigger controversy than Watergate! Didn't realize officials wondering about wearing an alternative style of shirt that most other state have was such as heated debate with the IHSAA. I guess the IHSAA has their reasons though for keeping things consistant. I'm not sure the discussion (at least on here) has reach the level of an embarassment yet awood, but I guess it's obviously ruffled some feathers of those involved in some way. I have to say that we are all worse off if this topic is the formost issue that the IHSAA is rallying agianst when it comes to the governing of our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryopinionated Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 According to the state rules interpreter, the IHSAA is not actually opposed to the gray shirts, however, their concern is that they don't want to force everyone to purchase a new shirt. As a result, our rules interpreter was actually asked to poll all of the officals and present the findings to the IHSAA. After receiving a response from 130+ officials over the course of a 10 day period, the overwelming response (86%) was in favor of switching, while another 12% stated that they did not care one way or the other. The NFHS made the gray shirts optional two years ago, and it's probably only a matter of time before they make them mandatory. I don't personally think that the color of the shirt has anything to do with how the officials officiate or how coaches respond to them, but I do think they look more professional. Regardless of the color of the shirts, I'm ready for wrestling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I'm ready for wrestling! Ain't that the truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I personally dont care what color shirts the refs wear, as long as they are wearing a shirt. Some of these guys have to be a scary sight on the beach......lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood2 Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Opinionated, apparently you haven't worked closely with anyone at the IHSAA, or any administrator at all. If the IHSAA wanted your opinion (they never will) they will come ask you themselves. The next time you are officials banquet I would like for you to find the IHSAA rep and tell them your story. I guarantee that your 'joke' will be told around the IHSAA water cooler for weeks. Meanwhile, I have heard the same speech you heard from the state interpreter in an email version. As a CHAIRMAN of an officials association I dared to ask why this message did not come from an IHSAA official, or at least on IHSAA letterhead. The embarassment I described in an earlier post then ensued (& continues everytime I read posts like the one I am responding to). Now I am sure your state interpreter did make that comment to you but let me ask you this: Q: Was the survey ever mentioned on a slide in the rule interpretation? A: No, the IHSAA doesn't care about your opinion :-\ Q: Has the IHSAA ever presented the results of the survey? A: No, they never asked for ANY survery ??? Q: Did this rule interpreter offer you a 'great deal' on a shirt? A: If he didn't you must have already had one. : Some guys saw what the NFHS did and they saw a chance to turnover some cheap shirts that got from a bubby at Joe-Smo Sports in Dingdongville and they are stinging b/c the IHSAA has stuck them with a garage full of shirts. The IHSAA has said no. Live with it and stop acting like a kid throwing a fit. If you were closer to the situation and knew more about what has already been done/said by those with actual decision making power you would feel what I feel. :-[ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iknownoothing Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 awood2.... I think from the side of the Officials you've preatty much hit the ol' nail on the head.After all there are many issues here that need to be looked at.I know when I was e-mailed about this issue I responed that I didn't care to get involved (for several reasons) I was then told that I would be a yes vote.So I really have a seriouse quistion about the vote count,I believe we need a recount.But then I guess it doesn't matter, as if the ISHAA really wanted to knowthey know how to do there owen surveies.As for all the other opinions offered----well lets not open that can of worms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts