wildcatcountry97 Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 For all of you who say the 'weight management' plans have not done anything and are worthless, are dead wrong. All you have to do is look at the wrestlers. 103 used to be half seniors, now its all freshman. The 145's used to be big ole boys who naturally weighed in the 160's easily, now most walk around in the 150's and so forth. While certainly it is "beat-able" and you can cheat to get around it, it has, overall, greatly discouraged massive weight cutting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 I think the advantage comes from wrestling younger opponents. The lower weight classes have younger and less experienced wrestlers on average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 I think the advantage comes from wrestling younger opponents. The lower weight classes have younger and less experienced wrestlers on average. That might be the case, and I could agree with being older should make you a better wrestler with all other things being equal. At this years IHSAA stae finals, we had 9 kids in the 119-125-130 weight classes that were sophmores or freshmen, compared to 5 in the 145-152-160 weight classes, so in the lighter weight classes, you did have a few more kids that are younger. That is assuming that all kids were the same age when they began thier high school career. That is not what they said though. They argued that being larger makes you a better wrestler, not being older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 For all of you who say the 'weight management' plans have not done anything and are worthless, are dead wrong. All you have to do is look at the wrestlers. 103 used to be half seniors, now its all freshman. The 145's used to be big ole boys who naturally weighed in the 160's easily, now most walk around in the 150's and so forth. While certainly it is "beat-able" and you can cheat to get around it, it has, overall, greatly discouraged massive weight cutting. Kids still cut crazy amounts of weight and to think otherwise, you are fooling yourself. I think the days of wearing plastics and drowning in hot tubs are rare (if you want to attribute that to the current weight management program, fine) but I know of kids that, within 24 hours of their last match of the season, increase their weight by more than 13%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Kids still cut crazy amounts of weight and to think otherwise, you are fooling yourself. I think the days of wearing plastics and drowning in hot tubs are rare (if you want to attribute that to the current weight management program, fine) but I know of kids that, within 24 hours of their last match of the season, increase their weight by more than 13%. I'm sure there are some kids who do find loopholes in their weight programs and "cut crazy weight." But I believe that the number of kids cutting crazy weight today is probably far less than what was happening 10-15-20 years ago. I bet the majority of kids follow their weight programs to a t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Kids still cut crazy amounts of weight and to think otherwise, you are fooling yourself. I think the days of wearing plastics and drowning in hot tubs are rare (if you want to attribute that to the current weight management program, fine) but I know of kids that, within 24 hours of their last match of the season, increase their weight by more than 13%. I'm sure there are some kids who do find loopholes in their weight programs and "cut crazy weight." But I believe that the number of kids cutting crazy weight today is probably far less than what was happening 10-15-20 years ago. I bet the majority of kids follow their weight programs to a t. I bet you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 I'm sure there are some kids who do find loopholes in their weight programs and "cut crazy weight." But I believe that the number of kids cutting crazy weight today is probably far less than what was happening 10-15-20 years ago. I bet the majority of kids follow their weight programs to a t. I bet you're wrong. Well I don't know where you're from but wrestlers from my area aren't trying to drastically cheat the system. Ask Y2, Karl, or other coaches who regularly come onto these boards if they think the weight regulations have worked. Are these regulations perfect? No, but they are much better than just letting kids run rampant with "crazy weight cutting." Also, how many kids have died since the implementation of weight programs? As far as I know, zero. Do a google search. I bet the last case you find of kids dying as a result of weight cutting was '97 or '98 (before weight regulations). So that's a sign that the system is working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 I'm sure there are some kids who do find loopholes in their weight programs and "cut crazy weight." But I believe that the number of kids cutting crazy weight today is probably far less than what was happening 10-15-20 years ago. I bet the majority of kids follow their weight programs to a t. I bet you're wrong. Well I don't know where you're from but wrestlers from my area aren't trying to cheat the system. Ask Y2, Karl, or other coaches who regularly come onto these boards if they think the weight regulations have worked. Are these regulations perfect? No, but they are much better than just letting kids run rampant with "crazy weight cutting." Also, how many kids have died since the implementation of weight programs? As far as I know, zero. Do a google search. I bet the last case you find of kids dying as a result of weight cutting was '97 or '98 (before weight regulations). So that's a sign that the system is working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boilermaker Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Didn't they used to take body fat measurements at state (80's)? Why not compare numbers between the start of season and the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Butabi Posted April 11, 2009 Author Share Posted April 11, 2009 What do you believe wins wrestling matches, conditioning and technique or cutting weight? Why not all 3? I'm simply stating that some weight classes are just plain harder than others. Not everyone can be a standout in every surrounding weight class. If I had honestly followed the weight regulations, I would have been wrestling much larger kids at 140 lbs., rather than kids at 125 lbs. who are generally weaker and easier to control (and there may not be as much talent). Of course there is a point where you can lose too much weight and you will start to considerably decline in performance, but I'm not saying the more weight you lose, the more successful you will be. I dont think I can see the logic in this statement. I would say atleast this year, and in many years, the 119-125-130 weight classes had many outstanding wrestlers that were not only skilled, but pound for pound as strong as anyone. I dont see the logic that bigger makes you a better wrestler. I can see that having extra weight can make you stronger, but it does not give you any inherent extra set of skills. Please explain how a 145 or 152 pound kid is a more skilled wrestler then a 125-130 pound kid. I have never said that cutting weight makes you a more skilled wrestler. If you're walking around at 150 lbs and you're goal for the season is to win an individual regional title, and the top seed in every weight class is equally skilled and conditioned (but not equal in size or strength), will you have a better chance at 140 lbs or 152lbs??? I don't know if I'm using the proper words, but this seems like common sense to me. And I'm definitely not saying that kids at 152 lbs are better wrestlers than 130 lb kids. I will agree that 125 and 130 have probably been more skilled and deep weight classes than 145 or 152 in the past years. And I'm not saying all lighter kids are weaker than all heavier kids, but the majority of them are. So what's more likely to prevail, skill and strength, or skill alone? Try to look at this from both sides!! I'm sure there are some kids who do find loopholes in their weight programs and "cut crazy weight." But I believe that the number of kids cutting crazy weight today is probably far less than what was happening 10-15-20 years ago. I bet the majority of kids follow their weight programs to a t. I bet you're wrong. Well I don't know where you're from but wrestlers from my area aren't trying to drastically cheat the system. Ask Y2, Karl, or other coaches who regularly come onto these boards if they think the weight regulations have worked. Are these regulations perfect? No, but they are much better than just letting kids run rampant with "crazy weight cutting." Also, how many kids have died since the implementation of weight programs? As far as I know, zero. Do a google search. I bet the last case you find of kids dying as a result of weight cutting was '97 or '98 (before weight regulations). So that's a sign that the system is working. And I agree with 1oldwrestler 100%. I know for a fact that the majority of wrestlers "cutting weight" do NOT follow the regulations to a T. I know many wrestlers all over the state and even a few from Illinois and Michigan, and they know as well as I do that there are many loopholes in the system. And coaches willing to abide by the system still dont know what their wrestlers do outside the room. Wrestlers don't call their coach to let them know they just sat in a sauna for an hour or just got back from a 4-mile run in plastics. Once again, I am NOT saying all wrestlers find ways around the system, but many do. And for those wrestlers who don't follow the regulations properly, MANY of them have been successful. Somebody should take a poll of what the state champions from every year weigh one week after the state finals (with the exception of 215 and 285). That might help prove what I'm trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 I'm sure there are some kids who do find loopholes in their weight programs and "cut crazy weight." But I believe that the number of kids cutting crazy weight today is probably far less than what was happening 10-15-20 years ago. I bet the majority of kids follow their weight programs to a t. I bet you're wrong. Well I don't know where you're from but wrestlers from my area aren't trying to drastically cheat the system. Ask Y2, Karl, or other coaches who regularly come onto these boards if they think the weight regulations have worked. Are these regulations perfect? No, but they are much better than just letting kids run rampant with "crazy weight cutting." Also, how many kids have died since the implementation of weight programs? As far as I know, zero. Do a google search. I bet the last case you find of kids dying as a result of weight cutting was '97 or '98 (before weight regulations). So that's a sign that the system is working. I'm from an evil area of Indiana, Cheatersville! Haven't you heard of it? The kids from my area are no different than kids from any area. Your earlier statement about the majority of kids strictly abiding by the rules is actually, probably true. However, when you distill down wrestlers in the post season, the closer you get to state, the more successful the kids are, the more drastic the weight cutting becomes because most of the better wrestlers (171 and below) are "gnawing a leg off" to get to that "magic" weight. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's a fact. Also, don't try bringing coaches into this because they can't say anything regarding this topic other than what the state regulations espouse, and rightfully so. If they said anything other they would be opening themselves up to litigation and suspension. So coaches of course are going to support what you are saying. Maybe you're from Truthville, IN and all of your kids are sticking to the letter of the weight program but if you're having honest conversations with kids who currently wrestle, I think you'll find otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Doug It sounds like you may have been misinformed on how to properly maintain weight. Your commitment to be an athlete in the sport of wrestling should have included a year round commitment to proper diet and nutrition. If you want stay healthy all your life this should be a commitment of a lifetime. The fact that you came into each season 20+ lbs from your desired competitve weight indicates you were probably not eating right or training as much in the non-competitve off season. Why would you want to carry an extra 20 lbs around if it is not lean muscle. What you descibe is cutting back to the lean muscle lower body fat weight that allows you to operate at your optimum level of competition. Why not just set up a plan that allows you to stay at your optimum weight all year round. When you do this you allow yourself to develop your conditioning and technique while you are at full strength. I assure you . You will become a better and more competitive athlete this way. Maybe you should rethink this paper and take up the other side of the weight regulation arguement. Ok. I have to ask this question. At what weight class are you currently competing ? More Later ! I need to give this some more thought. Respectfully Oscar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I'm from an evil area of Indiana, Cheatersville! Haven't you heard of it? The kids from my area are no different than kids from any area. Your earlier statement about the majority of kids strictly abiding by the rules is actually, probably true. However, when you distill down wrestlers in the post season, the closer you get to state, the more successful the kids are, the more drastic the weight cutting becomes because most of the better wrestlers (171 and below) are "gnawing a leg off" to get to that "magic" weight. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's a fact. Also, don't try bringing coaches into this because they can't say anything regarding this topic other than what the state regulations espouse, and rightfully so. If they said anything other they would be opening themselves up to litigation and suspension. So coaches of course are going to support what you are saying. Maybe you're from Truthville, IN and all of your kids are sticking to the letter of the weight program but if you're having honest conversations with kids who currently wrestle, I think you'll find otherwise. Here are some #'s I'd like for you to look at of Indiana state qualifiers at 103 for the past 11 years. I think the weight programs were first introduced in either '01 or '02. Take a look at how much the upper to lower classmen #'s changed since weight regulations were put into place. Are you going to say that it's just coincidence that they're less upper classmen state qualifiers for each year since '01? [table] '99 '00 '01 '02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08 '09 Upper Classmen 7 8 10 6 5 4 6 4 7 3 5 Lower Classmen 9 8 6 10 11 12 10 12 9 13 11 [/table] Something else to consider is that 103 has been around since the 1987-88 season. There have been 21 103 lb. state champions (in '95 there wasn't a 103 class). With 13 upper-classmen champs to 8 lower-classmen champs. Of those 8 lower-classmen, 5 have taken place since '05. So are lower-classmen all the sudden just that much better? I think not. This is strong evidence that upper-classmen are just unable to make the cut to 103 because of the weight regulations. On top of the fact that no one has died since the implementation of weight regulations. So something must be working with these programs, whether you want to admit it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Why not all 3? I'm simply stating that some weight classes are just plain harder than others. Not everyone can be a standout in every surrounding weight class. If I had honestly followed the weight regulations, I would have been wrestling much larger kids at 140 lbs., rather than kids at 125 lbs. who are generally weaker and easier to control (and there may not be as much talent). Of course there is a point where you can lose too much weight and you will start to considerably decline in performance, but I'm not saying the more weight you lose, the more successful you will be. Simply hit the weight room so you are as big and strong as those kids at 152lbs. Once again, cutting weight does not make you a better wrestler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Why not all 3? I'm simply stating that some weight classes are just plain harder than others. Not everyone can be a standout in every surrounding weight class. If I had honestly followed the weight regulations, I would have been wrestling much larger kids at 140 lbs., rather than kids at 125 lbs. who are generally weaker and easier to control (and there may not be as much talent). Of course there is a point where you can lose too much weight and you will start to considerably decline in performance, but I'm not saying the more weight you lose, the more successful you will be. Simply hit the weight room so you are as big and strong as those kids at 152lbs. Once again, cutting weight does not make you a better wrestler. Y2, we found something that we agree on......I would always rather see a kid build himself up to the weight he is wrestling then cutting weight to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I agree with both Y2 and Warrendad but It would be nice to have another weight class in college for the upper weights because 215's in hs are alot of times tweeners. And could potentially lead to poor choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I agree with both Y2 and Warrendad but It would be nice to have another weight class in college for the upper weights because 215's in hs are alot of times tweeners. And could potentially lead to poor choices. I agree. At Big 10s, I saw former #1 recruit Cody Gardner and he looked like crap from cutting weight all season. He was a 215lber in high school and looked horrible at 197. A year of cutting weight took the life out of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 This year in hs there is was a wrestler by the name of Fortune that could very well be in the same boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Fortune is HUGE for 215, but for 285 is tiny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Exactly. So what is the answer for these kids if they want to continue wrestling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyourbase Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Actually the plan is usles. You can go any weight you want. The only penelty is if you are below what you are allowed, your head coach is not allowed to participate in the state tourney. The plan is what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyourbase Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Cutting weight is hard, its sometimes intense, sometimes Overwhelming. I had to lose 12 lbs at the Worlds way back when. Made the weight, lost both times I wrestled to finish 4th after that. Worth it, I dunno, had to... yes. I wish I understood it then like I do today. Things may have been different. Bottom line. Treat your body right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I'm from an evil area of Indiana, Cheatersville! Haven't you heard of it? The kids from my area are no different than kids from any area. Your earlier statement about the majority of kids strictly abiding by the rules is actually, probably true. However, when you distill down wrestlers in the post season, the closer you get to state, the more successful the kids are, the more drastic the weight cutting becomes because most of the better wrestlers (171 and below) are "gnawing a leg off" to get to that "magic" weight. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's a fact. Also, don't try bringing coaches into this because they can't say anything regarding this topic other than what the state regulations espouse, and rightfully so. If they said anything other they would be opening themselves up to litigation and suspension. So coaches of course are going to support what you are saying. Maybe you're from Truthville, IN and all of your kids are sticking to the letter of the weight program but if you're having honest conversations with kids who currently wrestle, I think you'll find otherwise. Here are some #'s I'd like for you to look at of Indiana state qualifiers at 103 for the past 11 years. I think the weight programs were first introduced in either '01 or '02. Take a look at how much the upper to lower classmen #'s changed since weight regulations were put into place. Are you going to say that it's just coincidence that they're less upper classmen state qualifiers for each year since '01? [table] '99 '00 '01 '02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08 '09 Upper Classmen 7 8 10 6 5 4 6 4 7 3 5 Lower Classmen 9 8 6 10 11 12 10 12 9 13 11 [/table] Something else to consider is that 103 has been around since the 1987-88 season. There have been 21 103 lb. state champions (in '95 there wasn't a 103 class). With 13 upper-classmen champs to 8 lower-classmen champs. Of those 8 lower-classmen, 5 have taken place since '05. So are lower-classmen all the sudden just that much better? I think not. This is strong evidence that upper-classmen are just unable to make the cut to 103 because of the weight regulations. On top of the fact that no one has died since the implementation of weight regulations. So something must be working with these programs, whether you want to admit it or not. So, fewer upperclassmen and more underclassmen in the 103 pound weight class is your primary proof of the weight program working, eh? This is a new argument for this board as most people say kids are getting bigger and that's why the 103 pound weight class needs to be raised, they usually don't credit fewer upprclassmen to the weight management program. Hmmmm......Interesting. Picking one weight class isn't broad enough to support your thesis. Talk to the kids. This is my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 So, fewer upperclassmen and more underclassmen in the 103 pound weight class is your primary proof of the weight program working, eh? This is a new argument for this board as most people say kids are getting bigger and that's why the 103 pound weight class needs to be raised, they usually don't credit fewer upprclassmen to the weight management program. Hmmmm......Interesting. Picking one weight class isn't broad enough to support your thesis. Talk to the kids. This is my point. So kids just mysteriously got bigger since the implementation of weight regulations? Those #'s are pretty strong evidence to show that 103 has been affected. Therefore there has been an impact as a result of weight regulations. A big impact? I don't know about that, but an impact nonetheless. I don't need to talk to kids because I'm a coach and see it with my own eyes. What the kids do as far as weight cutting from my school is small compared to what it was 10-15 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Butabi Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 I feel the same way. Talk to the kids. I don't seem to be getting much support from this board on my perspective as it seems almost everyone contributing is either a coach, a parent, or someone who has simply been out of competitive wrestling for quite sometime. I have asked the opinion of many of my old high school and college teammates on the topic and many of them agree with me and see exactly where I am coming from. If I asked my grandpa on the other hand, he would probably say something very similar to what I have been getting on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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