Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 We aren't increasing the competitiveness when schools are dying off because they can't compete year in year out with schools 2-4X their size. If this is a response to BizzyCoach, I believe he was only talking about the individual tournament. The problem you bring up could be alleviated with a class team tournament, while leaving the individual tournament one class. It affects both areas though. If you can get one great kid in the room, his potential will be limited if you can't surround him with good coaches and good practice partners. I have seen numerous wrestlers at smaller schools that have the talent to be state place winners, yet they are hindered by the lack of solid practice partners or coaching or number of coaches. Smaller schools have limited budgets on how many paid coaches. They also have usually a limited area to find coaches from as they are usually rural schools. Add on top of the smaller number of teachers that could help out and you really limit the number and quality of the coaching staff at a small school. One big equalizer though is a USA wrestling club in the community. Some small schools have them and are successful. Some big schools don't and aren't. Also the facilities and budgets vary from school to school. Just because a school is bigger doesn't mean they spend more money on wrestling. Should we class the individual tournament based on whether the school has a USA club nearby or based on its budget because the individuals in schools without a USA club or a small budget are at a disadvantage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 It might help to go to classes, but having the format we have now, State would take a little getting used to. I for one am a not very smart person (even though I don't live in Indiana anymore) and like the lights turned out for the finals. I think our wrestelrs, for the first few years, might feel like they may or may not be a true State champ (they are too familiar with the old system)but that would fade in time. I don't know if going to classes would help Indiana wrestling or not. Where I live now, as I talk with people in the stands, they are split on which they would rather have. If it would help advance the sport and get more kids on the mat then I am all for it. I don't think there is any other sport that developes the character that wrestling does. That in the end is what high school sports are all about helping to develop these young people into responsible adults with character and class (no pun intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Joe Willman was at Yorktown last year, now at Lowell. He wasn't the head coach at Yorktown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 We should class the tournament the same way they do the other sports. However, I would not be opposed to socio-economic factors being figured into the equation also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Joe Willman was at Yorktown last year, now at Lowell. He wasn't the head coach at Yorktown. The point is he used coaching at a small school to springboard himself to a bigger school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Joe Willman was at Yorktown last year, now at Lowell. He wasn't the head coach at Yorktown. The point is he used coaching at a small school to springboard himself to a bigger school. My point is that he used an assistant coaching position to springboard himself to a head coaching position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The point is he used coaching at a small school to springboard himself to a bigger school. Going to classes will not stop this. Colleges are classed but your going to tell me a coach would not move from U of I to Michigan given the opportunity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 It might help to go to classes, but having the format we have now, State would take a little getting used to. I for one am a not very smart person (even though I don't live in Indiana anymore) and like the lights turned out for the finals. I think our wrestelrs, for the first few years, might feel like they may or may not be a true State champ (they are too familiar with the old system)but that would fade in time. I don't know if going to classes would help Indiana wrestling or not. Where I live now, as I talk with people in the stands, they are split on which they would rather have. If it would help advance the sport and get more kids on the mat then I am all for it. I don't think there is any other sport that developes the character that wrestling does. That in the end is what high school sports are all about helping to develop these young people into responsible adults with character and class (no pun intended). The first few years wouldn't be "fun," the same way people were all upset when bounceball went to classes. I think by now you still have a few people clinging to the 1950's Hoosiers, but most people have accepted it and enjoy the class atmosphere. Your last sentence is the best on this topic. I have asked numerous times what the point of high school athletics is and you summarize it the best way possible. At the end of the day the kids aren't going to care about whether they placed 3rd in a single class state or multi-class state, it will be the life lessons they learned in that journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The point is he used coaching at a small school to springboard himself to a bigger school. Going to classes will not stop this. Colleges are classed but your going to tell me a coach would not move from U of I to Michigan given the opportunity? No, but it will slow it down drastically. You still see it happen in football, but you also see many great coaches stay at small schools too. Ones like Rick Minnich of Adams Central, Bill Sharpe at Jimtown, Bud Wright at Sheridan, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachRyan_Delta Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The point is he used coaching at a small school to springboard himself to a bigger school. Going to classes will not stop this. Colleges are classed but your going to tell me a coach would not move from U of I to Michigan given the opportunity? You can't possibly think that a guy like Joey, no matter what school he was assisting at, would be an assistant long. I have great assistants, but I'm not naive. I know they will be head coaches someday. And moving up in classes, enrollment, etc. turns into a money game which does handcuff small schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomber Wrestling Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Here are my thought and comments on the class wrestling issue. Let's take a look back over the entire history of the sport to the late 1960's. I have examined and written down all the guys who were involved as wrestlers for RCHS. A high majority of these guys are the leaders not only in our community, but in several other places throughout the country. We have an amazing alumni organization whom keeps these records. What does that mean in regards to wrestling you ask? The mental development, attitude and fortitude which is developed within this sport and the challenges each wrestler over came to be outstanding, are lessons which every wrestler remembers for a lifetime. The desire to be the best, maybe in a local area or regional area, but I have always felt I wanted to be the best in my state where I work and operate. I big picture is that this sport gave me the tools to compete on a much larger scale and a larger playing field. I want these young wrestlers to be able to compete in the large arena. Our world, nor customers doesn't care what class you came from, what the demand from you will always be is "an outstanding performance!" "Teach your wrestlers how to compete in a larger environment and they will always be outstanding in their lives!" We need tough love and that means to me I think class wrestling is not necessary. I think these wrestlers would be proud to say they competed and were successful in the State and not in their particular class! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Joe Willman was at Yorktown last year, now at Lowell. He wasn't the head coach at Yorktown. The point is he used coaching at a small school to springboard himself to a bigger school. My point is that he used an assistant coaching position to springboard himself to a head coaching position. Ok how about this, he used an assistant coaching position at a small school to springboard himself to a head coaching position at a big school. He could have easily gone to a small school in the Muncie area and taken over I'm sure, but he chose to go to a bigger school for various reasons including most likely better pay, more student athletes, good youth program, etc. The first two will lure many small school coaches to a bigger school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 One big equalizer though is a USA wrestling club in the community. Some small schools have them and are successful. Some big schools don't and aren't. Also the facilities and budgets vary from school to school. Just because a school is bigger doesn't mean they spend more money on wrestling. Should we class the individual tournament based on whether the school has a USA club nearby or based on its budget because the individuals in schools without a USA club or a small budget are at a disadvantage? I think the inequities will continue to grow between those school that have 3/4 of their line-up wrestling year round and those that can't afford this. Even schools like Bellmont might see the divide grow between themselves and the Mishawakas, Crown Points, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrasler Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Teams- Classed; Individual- One champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Teams- Classed; Individual- One champion. Your vote is tallied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomber Wrestling Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I agree with wraler's comment! Plain and simple. You must believe in the KISS Principle - "Keep It Simple Stupid" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I agree with wraler's comment! Plain and simple. You must believe in the KISS Principle - "Keep It Simple Stupid" I believe in the 'Keep it Simplest Stupid' Principle - Class team and class individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyourbase Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 5 class system Maybe split the state into 1/4's split that into 3rd's Everybody gets a medal. (not really) Problem solved. This way there has to be more involvement and all the other "benefits" that would come from a class system, right?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I agree with wraler's comment! Plain and simple. You must believe in the KISS Principle - "Keep It Simple Stupid" I believe in the 'Keep it Simplest Stupid' Principle - Class team and class individual. But that's not very simple. You would have to change what we are currently doing. Where would you draw the lines? How big would each sectional be? Would there be a regional and a semi-state. Sounds complicated. Better leave it like it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 But that's not very simple. You would have to change what we are currently doing. Where would you draw the lines? How big would each sectional be? Would there be a regional and a semi-state. Sounds complicated. Better leave it like it is. Not really...could use present set up for other sports already classed with minor tweaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomber Wrestling Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 What ever is decided everyone should ask ourselves this one thing. "Will this be good for all wrestlers?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrasler Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 What ever is decided everyone should ask ourselves this one thing. "Will this be good for all wrestlers?" Agreed. individuals get one champion (who is the best), and teams compete against teams of similar sized schools to give all a chance to win as a team. What will that hurt. Go with the same classes those other sports use. I probably said too much already. Happy debating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyourbase Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I suppose I don't like class wrestling because I came from the era of non-class team state champoinships. We did ok placing 4th(as a small school) in the state tournament. Silly me holding on to the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justdo^it135 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 As a wrestler i don't want class wrestling at the individual level. If i were to win a state title i would want to believe i was the best in the state. However, i wouldnt be able to because there would be other wrestlers at my weight who won state titles also. And, certainly they would also believe they were the best in the state. So, in order for me to know i am the best i must wrestle against all of the competition or else my state title doesn't mean anything. It would be pointless to put forth so much effort for something that doesn't mean anything. I pity the state champs in states with class wrestling, because they will never know truely if they were indeed the best in there state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 But that's not very simple. You would have to change what we are currently doing. Where would you draw the lines? How big would each sectional be? Would there be a regional and a semi-state. Sounds complicated. Better leave it like it is. Not really...could use present set up for other sports already classed with minor tweaks. No other individual sports are classed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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