Rookies03

I don't buy into the big schools have this huge advantage over small schools when it comes to individual success.  Bigger enrollments give a school more kids that might have the talent and work ethic to have more success but what makes wrestling great is same size kids wrestle each other so it isn't like a 1A school going against a 6A school in basketball or football where one school has multiple 6'8" kids or multiple 300 lb kids who can physically dominate the other.  Is it more convenient at larger schools with better resources?  Yes.  Does it prevent a small school kid from having success? No.  I can work as hard as I want in basketball but I cant work hard enough to be 6'8".  In Wrestling I don't have to overcome something I cant control.  And its just not the "work harder' argument.  It is truly a commitment to getting better.  It takes sacrifice, dedication, hard work and still some talent to get better and be great.  

Now would it help the sport?  Yes I think it would.  More kids having success would bring out more kids.  Its too bad we cant have an "all-in" team tournament by class with Sectionals, Regionals, Semi-States and State.  The IHSWCA Team tournament is awesome but what about the school that winning a sectional or regional is a really big deal.  Maybe it gets kids on the team to recruit some good athletes to fill weight classes.  Gives more training partners.  Helps develop a wrestling culture at a school. 

On the IHSAA Website in their yearbooks it gives a detail to each sports attendance and revenue.  The last yearbook is the 2000-2001 season but here are some interesting numbers...

4th in Participation (Behind Football, Track and Baseball)

4th in Tournament Attendance (behind Football, Boys Basketball, Girls Basketball)

$162,000 in revenue for entire state tournament (to compare girls basketball was $192k with more than double the attendance)

To echo XCard, I think the IHSAA values wrestling and the tournament but are less interested in making significant adjustments to the format that might only impact a small percentage of the wrestlers.  How many 5th place finishers at state each year are truly in the top 4 but got a bad draw?  Maybe a couple of kids each year?  The IHSAA is not going to make a significant change to the tournament for a couple of kids each year.  

The ref signaled unnecessary roughness and awarded the Def School wrestler 1 pt. 

Looked like the neck brace and stretcher were more precautionary but you never know in those cases. Hope the young man is ok. 

Obviously a very big topic this time of year.... just some thoughts on wrestlebacks at each level.

Sectional - we have them after the pigtail matches.  So as long as kids are seeded correctly and non-seeded kids are placed in pigtail rounds I think this is a good way to run the Sectional.

Regional - You wrestle your way into your seed from Sectional and since only 2 Sectionals feed into a Regional there is no luck of the draw. Keep the same.

Semi-State - Biggest opportunity for wrestlebacks but if you only do wrestlebacks after the 1st round then people will start asking for wrestlebacks all the way through and 16 man brackets cant be run in 1 day without running into the 5 match rule.  Also most of the time the Semi State is wrapping up in the evening.  To add Wrestlebacks might only add a couple hours but that means the event is going until late evening and the length of Saturdays is a big discussion regarding what is killing the sport (I know this applys much less cause most of these kids and families would gladly stay longer at this level but its still an issue).  There also might not be the support of the HS admins as this would mean kids out on roads later in Feb when weather could be an issue and some are traveling 1-2 hours to get to their SS. There will always be bad draws and upsets.  I say leave it the same.

State - While it might not seem as if time would be an issue with the big break taken before the finals I dont think that break can be eliminated as they clear out BLF and re-admit everyone but there is more of an opportunity at State because it is 2 days.  All that being said, I don't necessarily see the value.  It might help with some recruitment but as out of season tournaments are becoming bigger and bigger with more and more coverage from flo and others I only see this helping a very few and the IHSAA isnt going to change for just a few.

All in all it probably makes the most sense to look at WB for semi-state but time and matches make it the most difficult to implement.  Plus we wouldnt get the 7 page thread on "death draws" and "need for wrestlback" in the forum to keep us entertained the week before SS!

On 1/29/2019 at 3:26 PM, jlittlejohn said:

This is no longer the case. The rule was changed a couple of years ago. The offender would still be declared the winner, however, any team points earned within the tournament or dual would be negated and be penalized -3 team points for the flagrant misconduct. The offended wrestler would still technically be the loser and score 0-points. There are two separate examples in the 2018-19 NFHS  Wrestling Case/Manual the describe this exact thing. Page 27  5.11.4 SITUATION B & C.

Also, if this occurred in a tournament neither wrestler would advance, as, technically there is no winner.

Yes... sorry... he wins but he still loses... still very important distinction.  Thanks!

33 minutes ago, rhayes said:

As soon as they he gets out if criteria.

Section 11 ART 4 b

once a tech fall has been earned, the offensive wrestler cannot lose the match. 

 

Unless the wrestler winning commits a Flagrant Misconduct then he could lose but obviously this would be a pretty rare situation. 

Tournament match scoring errors:

A recordable error must be corrected prior to the offended wrestler leaving the mat area if additional wrestling is necessary (Mat Area: Rule 2-1-5: the wrestling mat plus 10 feet). Otherwise, when additional wrestling is NOT necessary, the offended wrestler or coach must remain in the mat area.

A computational error must be corrected prior to the next match in which either wrestler competes. Again, if additional wrestling is necessary, it must be corrected prior to the offended wrestler leaving the mat area.

I would consider this to be a computational error as the adding up of points was not correctly determined during the action.  Therefore, this could have been corrected if determined prior to either wrestler wrestling their next match since the error would not have required re-wrestling.  

Now maybe the referee, scorer and coaches could not determine that a computation error occurred (they couldnt specifically remember the score and situation) however if they could then it could have been corrected.

I believe that all of this was known at the seeding meeting on Monday but the coaches did the right thing and seeded wrestlers as they should have been seeded. A big kudos to those coaches for the doing the right thing!

As Maligned said, these are more examples of what the wrestlers did AFTER the year they were in this bracket.  What is the most accomplished bracket coming into the state tournament?

For Example 126 last year:

Garcia - 1x champ, 1x 3rd place

Rooks - 1x champ

Viduya - 1x champ

Mills - 2x 2nd and 1x 3rd

Mejia - 1x 2nd, 1x 5th

Poynter - 1x 4th

Demien - 1x 7

Smiley - 1x 8

3 Crowns and 9 medals going in....  I am sure there are other examples from past years.

23 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

There is no question that Maurer was better on his feet, but how much better and better enough to negate Drew's top game? 

All this talk about Maurer vs Hughes has got me thinking if this would come down to a flip of the disk. 

Making a couple of assumptions (for argument sake)...

1. First period would end 0-0 (Hughes fends off several Maurer blast doubles).

2. Hughes rides out Maurer but does not turn him for 1 period (won't make that assumption for 2 periods). 

What would the strategy be for each wrestler if they win the flip of the disk after period 1?

Maurer wins flip - Does he take down to try and score 1st point?  Does he choose neutral to go another 2 mins on his feet?  Does he defer?

Hughes wins flip - Does he take down to try and score 1st point?  Does he choose top as this might be his only opportunity to hammer on Blake?  Does he defer?

I agree that Drew has advantage on top but going 30 second overtimes does Blake ride him too?

Fun to discuss!

1 hour ago, thejingram said:

Here's a list of champions (displays best on desktop) from the last seven years with the current weight classes plus 2011 with the old weights (I may have misspelled a name or school) 

As mentioned, the weight class changes make it challenging to create a 16-person bracket. The old 130-135-140 weight classes now are 132-138 and in the upper weights the old 189-215 is now 182-195-220. 

Taking the last seven, you can run them through an 8-man bracket with the top seed getting a bye. Someone with far more knowledge would have to seed them.
 

Weight Class

106

113

120

126

132

138

145

152

160

170

182

195

220

285

2018

Jacob Moran, Portage (Jr., 34-2)

Brayden Curtis, Yorktown (Jr., 40-0)

Hunter Watts, Jimtown (Jr., 44-1)

Asa Garcia, Avon (Jr., 39-4)

Graham Rooks, Columbus East (Sr., 48-0)

Kris Rumph, Portage (Sr., 32-4)

Jordan Slivka, Cathedral (Jr., 43-3)

Brayton Lee, Brownsburg (Sr., 34-0)

Nick South, Columbus East (Jr., 48-1)

Noah Warren, Perry Meridian (Sr., 46-1)

Conner Graber, Northridge (Sr., 48-1)

Lucas Davison, Chesterton (Sr., 52-0)

Mason Parris, Lawrenceburg (Sr., 47-0)

Eli Pokorney, Chesterton (Jr., 42-0)

2017

Brayden Curtis, Yorktown (So., 43-0)

Alec Viduya, Roncalli (Fr., 47-2)

Cayden Rooks, Columbus East (So., 46-1)

Alec White, New Palestine (Sr., 39-1)

Breyden Bailey, Cathedral (Sr., 42-1)

Brendan Black, Hobart (Sr., 30-1)

Brayton Lee, Brownsburg (Jr., 46-0)

Joe Lee, Mater Dei (Jr., 36-0)

Brad Laughlin, Yorktown (Sr., 46-1)

Eli Stock, Monrovia (Sr., 41-2)

Jacob Gray, Delta (Sr., 42-2)

Andrew Davison, Chesterton (Sr., 42-0)

Mason Parris, Lawrenceburg (Sr., 47-0)

Evan Ellis, Eastern (Sr., 46-0)

2016

Asa Garcia, Avon (Fr., 36-6)

Colton Cummings, Lowell (Jr., 46-0)

Drew HIldebrandt, Penn (Sr., 46-1)

Brock Hudkins, Danville (Sr., 47-0)

Chad Red, New Palestine (Sr., 44-0)

Brayton Lee, Brownsburg (So., 43-0)

Joe Lee, Mater Dei (So., 32-2)

Trent Pruitt, Warren Central (Jr., 45-2)

Jacob Covaciu, Merriville (Sr., 42-0)

Drew Hughes, Lowell (Sr., 47-0)

Blake Rypel, Cathedral (Sr., 45-0)

Jake Kleimola, Lake Central (Sr., 43-1)

Mason Parris, Lawrenceburg (Sr., 47-0)

Shawn Streck, Merrillville (Sr., 45-0)

2015

Colton Cummings, Lowell (So., 45-1)

Garrett Pepple, East Noble (Sr., 46-0)

Brock Hudkins, Danville (Jr., 33-0)

Chad Red, New Palestine (Jr., 47-0)

Nick Lee, Mater Dei (So., 35-0)

Tommy Cash, Lawrence North (Sr., 45-2)

Jacob Covaciu, Merriville (Jr., 44-1)

Tommy Forte, Mishawaka (Sr., 37-0)

Drew Hughes, Lowell (Jr., 44-0)

Dylan Lydy, Ben Davis (Sr., 46-0)

Chase Osborn, Penn (Sr., 39-0)

Blake Rypel, Cathedral (Jr., 46-0)

Kobe Woods, Penn (Jr., 44-0)

Shawn Streck, Merrillville (Sr., 45-0)

2014

Jeremiah Reitz, Griffith (Fr., 45-1)

DJ Smith, Franklin Community (Sr., 39-1)

Chad Red, New Palestine (So., 44-0)

Stevan Micic, Hanover Central (Sr., 42-0)

Deondre Wilson, Warren Central (Sr., 39-0)

Tommy Cash, Lawrence North (Sr., 45-2)

Cody LeCount, Perry Meridian (Sr., 44-0)

Brendon Kelley, Evansville Central (Sr., 50-0)

Rhett Hiestand, Yorktown (Sr., 47-2)

Jacob Stevenson, Franklin Community (Jr., 40-1)

Damien Chambers, Edgewood (Sr., 44-1)

Katrell Moss, Warren Central (Sr., 31-2)

Gelen Robinson, Lake Central (Sr., 52-0)

Wesley Bernard, Cathedral (Sr., 49-0)

2013

Chad Red, New Palestine (Fr., 48-0)

Stevan Micic, Hanover Central (Jr., 48-0)

Deondre Wilson, Warren Central (Jr., 38-0)

Nick Crume, Jimtown (Sr., 38-0)

Cody LeCount, Perry Meridian (Jr., 40-0)

Tommy Forte, Mishawaka (So., 46-0)

Neal Malloy, Danville (Sr., 43-0)

Josh Farrell, Greenfield Central (Sr., 48-0)

Riley McClurg, Perry Meridian (Sr., 37-3)

Bobby Steveson, Merriville (So., 39-0)

Matt Hurford, Culver Community (Sr., 47-0)

Mitch Sliga, Fishers (Sr., 49-0)

Gelen Robinson, Lake Central (Sr., 52-0)

Donte Winfield, Perry Meridian (Sr., 41-2)

2012

Stevan Micic, Hanover Central (So., 47-0)

Jarred Brooks, Warsaw (Sr., 35-0)

Paul Petrov, Hanover Central (Sr., 47-0)

Kyle Ayersman, Lake Central (Sr., 52-0)

Jared McKinley, Perry Meridian (Sr., 48-1)

Devon Jackson, Yorktown (Sr., 52-0)

Jason Tsirtsis, Crown Point (Sr., 42-0)

Isaiah Bradley, Muncie South (Jr., 44-0)

Brian Harvey, Cathedral (Sr., 47-0)

Sean Mappes, Center Grove (Sr. 46-0)

Tanner Lynde, Delphi (Sr., 52-0)

Mitch Sliga, Fishers (Jr., 49-0)

Tyler Kral, Crown Point (Sr., 41-2)

Abraham Hall, Bremen (Sr., 50-0)

this is just for fun so dont beat me up too bad....  I just picked 2 for each final and winner not taking into account the random draw.

106 - Red 13 over Micic 12 (the super frosh wins the first battle of these 2)

113 - Micic 13 over Cummings 16

120 - Red 14 over Hudkins 15

126 - Micic 14 over Red 15 (the senior gets the win)

132 - Lee 15 over Red 16 (a healthy Lee takes this hypothetical re-match)

138 - Lee 16 over Black 17

145 - Tsirtsis 12 over Lee 16/Lee 17 (Big Semifinal match)

152 - Lee over Lee (rematch of 145 semi final)*

160 - Hughes 15 over Covaciu 16

170 - Stevenson 13 over Hughes 16

182 - Rypel 16 over Lynde 12

195 - Davidson 17 vs Sliga 13 vs Rypel 15 (couldn't pick a winner here)

220 - Parris 18 over Robinson 14

285 - Streck 16 over Bernard 14

1 hour ago, Ironbear said:

Here's a better question who had the least amount of matches in a year to win it?

1 minute ago, Galagore said:

Wasn't this thread about the next Kris Rumph? These seem to be past examples...who's up and coming who could pull off a feat like this?

No one knows cause they probably aren't wrestling yet. LOL

In all seriousness, its very hard to predict the same level of success as Rumph but to look at kids who can maybe qualify or place at state with not much wrestling experience other than HS might be possible.  I know its not a "next" guy but I thought I heard Guerrier from Ev Cent didnt start till HS and ended up 4th this year.

10 hours ago, leaveitonthemat said:

Any stat guys out there know the most losses for a champ?

3 with 6 losses. 

 Robert Miller LN in 93

Pete Knecht HN in 94

Asa Garcia Avon in 16

19 minutes ago, Sydokun said:

I see both sides but at the same time teams should set together. Kinda odd 3 people setting in a sea of Portage if your kid is wrestling a portage kid. 

I agree... State is so much fun when a whole section is cheering together.  I wonder if IHSAA or Bankers Life could designate 1 or 2 sections in the lower level as "No Seat Saving" sections.  Maybe the corner sections that can see all the mats but aren't the best seats.  Most big groups would obviously avoid these sections since they can't save and give family, friends or small schools a chance to get a good seat.  Of course it would be first come first serve but could open up seats without that much extra work.  

36 minutes ago, Westforkwhite said:

HS kids cant put on more than 15 lbs of muscle in an offseason(with a few genetic exceptions) and most would be lucky to put on 10. Its hard to argue that weight gains beyond 10 lbs are "healthy weight" gains. I would suggest that near all 20+ lbs weight gains are increasing your fat ratio.

I agree with you... 15-20 lbs is not gonna be healthy weight for a 106 lb kid in one year but that's why I was saying 4-9 lbs.  I do agree that adding 9 lbs of muscle in an off season is even a bit of a stretch but not out of the question.  Especially for a Junior or Senior who eats correctly and lifts correctly (now a HS kid eating correctly is a totally different subject).  Also, if the weight class was increased then the undersized freshman has several years to put on that weight vs trying to do it in one season.  

19 minutes ago, dstruck said:

 

.  For the same reason I am a fan of class wrestling - the small school can't help being small - i am a fan for keeping a weight class for the small kid - he can't help being small either.

I dont agree with this... an upper classmen can do a lot to put on healthy weight.  Lift weights, eat healthy, etc.  Raising 106 to 110-115 is a kid only adding 4-9 lbs.  

Now a freshman or even young sophomore might have trouble especially if they havent gone through puberty yet.  However you could always let that kid only wrestle kids who are comparable in size.  You cant tell me that a 95 lb pre-puberty freshman wrestling a kid who cut from 110-115 to 106 isnt going to be discouraging.

I think the classed Team Duals are awesome and it is so much fun to watch the 1A and 2A schools get after it and bring great crowds.  Does anyone have any information on what this has done to participation levels at smaller schools?  Could this be an argument for or against classing the individual tournament?  As it stands right now there are right around 150 kids each in 1A and 2A that get to compete in the team duals which is a pretty significant number.  

18 hours ago, MOWrestler said:

We'd need a huge increase in numbers to support this.

Very true.  Not a ton of Freshman events and really not many more JV events. However do 95 lb freshman get turned away from wrestling because they end up wrestling kids who are cutting to get to 106.  Just thinking outside the box to look at how we can promote kids getting stronger moving up weights vs cutting.  

7 hours ago, doctorWrestling said:

  I would think eliminating weight classes would ultimately result in less participation - like a 95 lb freshman not seeing a good path to getting to compete if the first class is 113. 

I know this is just an example but in what other sport are we encouraging a 95 lb freshman to be a varsity athlete?

I don't think eliminating weight classes is the right answer but I would like to see bigger weight classes for Varsity and smaller for freshman and JV.  Example...

Freshman (current wt classes - 7 lbs) - 99, 106, 113, 119, 125, 131, 138, 145, 153, 163, 175, 188, 213, 277

JV (current wt classes) 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285

Varsity (current wt classes +7 lbs) - 113, 120, 127, 132, 139, 145, 152, 159, 167, 177, 189, 202, 227, 292

This would potentially promote healthy weight gain as kids get older.  

Ill take 171 from '93.

D. Pleak Eventual State Champ and Runner up

D. Brimmage 3rd ('93) and 4th ('94)

W. Hill Eventual State Champ

J. Brimm Eventual State Champ, 3rd ('94) and 4th ('93)

And those guys werent in the finals...

R. Miller State Champ

G. Journey 2nd, 2nd and 3rd

Very fun to watch these guys go at it.  

Very interesting the topic is posted this week and today there were a bunch of match ups between top ranked wrestlers. 

106 #1 Moran vs #3 Bailey

160 #2 Lemley vs #3 Mappes

138 #2 Rumph vs #3 Melloh

195 #1 Davidson vs #3 Penola

152 #3 Washington vs #3 Slivka (145)

170 #3 Brewer vs #8 Carson

Looks like not much dodging today

If a kid registers for a certain weight and doesn't make weight can they move up and compete?

effectively, the hands to the face amounts to a 2-point penalty if you are on your back?

Yes. The hands to the face are a penalty by itself but since it could prevent a fall or cause the situation to end then there is another point.

In the situation you describe it would have been a 4 pt nearfall. An extra point gets added due to the illegal hands to the face. 1 pt for the illegal move and 1 extra NF pt.

2 TD

4 NF

1 penalty

7-0