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Cooper160

Rules question

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I was watching a match this weekend during sectional semis. Kid was up 16-6, the wrestler that was ahead then scored a reversal and 3 pts nearfall making 21-6.  The match did not get stopped and the kid Who was winning got in a scramble put in a headlock and pinned. Nobody noticed at the time that before the scramble it was a 15 pt match. After about 20 minutes it was addressed but they were told that there’s nothing that could be done about it now.  Is this correct ?  

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My understanding is, and I'm certainly no expert - but it's a tech fall. The match isn't stopped immediately because the kid winning had a chance for the pin. Once that no longer was on the table, the match should have stopped.

Again, I'm not an expert. I would be surprised to see the rules be any different though.

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The way that I have always understood it is that you have to questions the score/outcome in this case before your wrestler steps off of the mat.  Once your wrestler has stepped off of the mat you can no longer go back and question the scoring of the match.

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As stated above, I do believe the rule states that all corrections to match scores must be done prior to the start of the next match on that mat.  That is an unfortunate way to lose.  Official scorer and referee should have been a little better in realizing the situation, as well as the Coach. 

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I would say if the guy winning had a pinning combination after his 2 reversal and 3 point near fall, and then transitioned straight to his back and pinned, then he lost. No questions asked. I don't think you can stop a pinning combination and say "he's up by 15!".

Edited by Jimtown 138

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1 hour ago, XCard said:

As stated above, I do believe the rule states that all corrections to match scores must be done prior to the start of the next match on that mat.  That is an unfortunate way to lose.  Official scorer and referee should have been a little better in realizing the situation, as well as the Coach. 

Xcard is correct.  Too bad to happen at sectionals, but the kid should of won.   Ref and coach should know better.

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Just now, rhayes said:

Once the tech fall was reached, he cannot lose.  

But wrestling didn't stop at that point because he had a chance to pin the guy, then transitioned straight to his own back. Where do you stop the motion?

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8 minutes ago, Jimtown 138 said:

But wrestling didn't stop at that point because he had a chance to pin the guy, then transitioned straight to his own back. Where do you stop the motion?

As soon as they he gets out if criteria.

Section 11 ART 4 b

once a tech fall has been earned, the offensive wrestler cannot lose the match. 

 

Edited by rhayes

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13 minutes ago, rhayes said:

As soon as they he gets out if criteria.

Section 11 ART 4 b

once a tech fall has been earned, the offensive wrestler cannot lose the match. 

 

Well there it is... I would say the coach dropped the ball then.

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Hopefully this wasn't a match that eliminated the wrestler from the tournament?  Did he still place in the top 4?

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Tournament match scoring errors:

A recordable error must be corrected prior to the offended wrestler leaving the mat area if additional wrestling is necessary (Mat Area: Rule 2-1-5: the wrestling mat plus 10 feet). Otherwise, when additional wrestling is NOT necessary, the offended wrestler or coach must remain in the mat area.

A computational error must be corrected prior to the next match in which either wrestler competes. Again, if additional wrestling is necessary, it must be corrected prior to the offended wrestler leaving the mat area.

I would consider this to be a computational error as the adding up of points was not correctly determined during the action.  Therefore, this could have been corrected if determined prior to either wrestler wrestling their next match since the error would not have required re-wrestling.  

Now maybe the referee, scorer and coaches could not determine that a computation error occurred (they couldnt specifically remember the score and situation) however if they could then it could have been corrected.

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33 minutes ago, rhayes said:

As soon as they he gets out if criteria.

Section 11 ART 4 b

once a tech fall has been earned, the offensive wrestler cannot lose the match. 

 

Unless the wrestler winning commits a Flagrant Misconduct then he could lose but obviously this would be a pretty rare situation. 

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I don’t think I’d put it on the coach in this situation. The match in itself was pretty hectic with a lot of quick scoring and missed calls and points by the ref of the match .  You can blame a few different people but like I said nobody noticed it till a match or 2 later. Thanks for all the input. 

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23 minutes ago, Cooper160 said:

I don’t think I’d put it on the coach in this situation. The match in itself was pretty hectic with a lot of quick scoring and missed calls and points by the ref of the match .  You can blame a few different people but like I said nobody noticed it till a match or 2 later. Thanks for all the input. 

When the wrestler was up 10 and as soon as he got the reversal, the coach should have known that he was up 12. As soon as back points are being counted, it's just natural for coaches and even the ref to know that tech fall is a real possibility.

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All of the tournaments I've been to, I have seen the scorekeeper notify the referee of the tech fall, if the referee wasnt already aware.

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16 minutes ago, tigroscr said:

All of the tournaments I've been to, I have seen the scorekeeper notify the referee of the tech fall, if the referee wasnt already aware.

Its the responsibility of the referee to catch this, and coaches should know this rule.  I see a lot of parents and kids doing scorekeeping.  I bet most of them aren't familiar with rule.  Its the scorekeepers responsibility, but is a bonus if you do have a scorekeeper familiar with the rules.

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I would be surprised to see a scorekeeper attempt to stop the match if the bottom wrestler reverses to a pinning combination and the official is still actively engaged in the action. The scorekeeper (if they noticed the tech fall) should have alerted the official once the fall was called

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I've seen the scorekeeper sound theHorn, if the referee didnt pay attention.  Or somehow let the referee know. Most referees are aware. But I can definitely see where it could be missed. Especially if the people running the table dont understand the rules correctly.

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4 hours ago, Jimtown 138 said:

But wrestling didn't stop at that point because he had a chance to pin the guy, then transitioned straight to his own back. Where do you stop the motion?

It's similar to locked hands where you allow the bottom wrestler to improve his situation before stopping the action.  It should be a "free move".
You allow the pin situation to resolve because; Team Points.  But the second the pinning situation is stopped, the match should be stopped.

Edited by Katanakahn

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That's on the scorekeeper, ref & coach. 

Also, using "the scorekeeper may not be familiar with the rules" isn't a valid excuse. If the scorekeepers can't do the job right, then the site needs to find competent scorekeepers. If you petition to the IHSAA to host a sectional site, then you need to put good people in those spots.

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If tho

31 minutes ago, slice60 said:

That's on the scorekeeper, ref & coach. 

Also, using "the scorekeeper may not be familiar with the rules" isn't a valid excuse. If the scorekeepers can't do the job right, then the site needs to find competent scorekeepers. If you petition to the IHSAA to host a sectional site, then you need to put good people in those spots.

 

31 minutes ago, slice60 said:

That's on the scorekeeper, ref & coach. 

Also, using "the scorekeeper may not be familiar with the rules" isn't a valid excuse. If the scorekeepers can't do the job right, then the site needs to find competent scorekeepers. If you petition to the IHSAA to host a sectional site, then you need to put good people in those spots.

Ok blame the scorekeeper.   If they're going to volunteer  and not get paid to do something,  they better do it right.  And they shouldn't get asked to volunteer next year if they mess up.  And they should be required to take the rules test before they volunteer. Yes,  when they see the ref is wrong and raising the wrong guys hand they should have the ability to tell the ref is wrong.   Ironically,  I've seen situations when a kid gets a tech fall and is going after the pin,  the scorekeeper buzzes to stop the match because they thought match should be done.   Its not the scorekeepers fault,

Ironically,  when I ref I see a lot of teenage kids working the table.  And some of them are fumbling on their cell phone or showing some public affection to their girlfriend or boyfriend and not paying the match.  Some of them.

The coach is the one that messed here.


 

 

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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The coach of the kid that benefitted from this mistake could have shown some integrity as well and not accepted the win.

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