Rookies03

Not to split hairs but.... Cathedral might be located in Marion County but they compete in the City and are apart of the City alliance.  

Having the championship match showcased at Brownsburg this past year made it very special IMHO.  While it does increase the amount of time for the event, I think it is well worth it.  If needed take out the "wrestleback" round and use that time to show case the finals.  Obviously this would make it necessary to have 4 different sites but I would guess that a lot of the participating programs would benefit from having an environment as close as possible to the IHSAA finals of wrestling in front of the entire crowd under the lights (provided the host has a spotlight).

16 hours ago, PatParham said:

Zionsville

 

106/103: Tyler Mantel - SQ

113/112: Dean Arnold - SQ

120/119: Preston Mantel - State Placer

126/125: Brandon Christensen - State Runner-up (3x qualifier)

132/130: Josiah Wagner - State Placer

138/135: Graham Youngs - State Placer (2x Qualifier)

145/140: Logan Wagner - State Champ (4x placer)

152/145: Drew Brogden - State Placer

160/152: Shane Wagner - State Runner-up (2x placer, 4x qualifier)

170/160: Shane Bates - State Placer (2x Qualifier)

182/171: Jacob Howenstein - State Placer

195/189: Thomas Penola - State Placer

220/215: Ryan Wagner - State Placer (3x placer, 4x qualifier)

285/275: Chuck Robinson - State Placer

Hard to argue with list but I’d slide Kody Wagner in at 152/145 as a 4th place finisher. 
 

Jacob Aven should be mentioned as at least HM. 

12 hours ago, Justafan74 said:

There may have been three Welches there. I’m not sure if little brother qualified or not. The probably had a brother there as an official also. 

One of those years that Doug and Chad wrestled both Welch officials were there also but I think they are uncles to Doug and Chad.  Still very cool to see all the family ties.

I wouldn’t get too worked up over anything just yet. So much can change between now and State. 
 

I’m guessing the IHSAA is looking at all possibilities to be prepared for anything that might come up in the next 5 weeks. 

Awesome day of wrestling!  Big thanks to all that made it possible. 

I just saw this on FB. Such a great 4 year wrestler back in the 90s. So sad to hear of this loss. 

A kid who is hurt or just not wrestling can still weigh-in to get a qualifying weigh-in just remember to bring a singlet for them to wear when they step on the scale. 

21 hours ago, blueandgold said:

Nick Crume vs. Luke Welch in 2013 was also an incredible finals match.

Probably the most action of any 1-1 match going into overtime.  These two absolutely got after it but could not finish during regulation.  Great match!

All of these matches were awesome and so much fun to watch but I think Red vs Lee has to top the list. Red going for a 4x undefeated HS career and Lee coming off a season long injury. Red wrestled with a flare and had a persona all his own. Lee was the blue collared Wildcat from the south.  So much anticipation that people all of over the state were waiting to click open the brackets to see if Nick actually entered the sectional at 132. Then the anticipation to see if Red/Lee would happen in the semis or under the lights. It was the first time I had heard so much buzz about making that match the last of the night. Then the roar of the crowd before the match only to have to wait on a tv commercial break and then another roar to get it going.  Both wrestlers had the other on their back after takedowns and the match decided by Red’s ability to ride tough. 
 

And not to take anything away from the other wrestlers but just not sure how you top that. 

I don't look at going from 12 to 8 schools as a decrease in the chances of a 1A school going to or winning team state.  Yes there are less spots but all schools have the opportunity to compete this year for a spot next year.  There should still be motivation at smaller schools to draw athletes and grow the sport.  Ultimately Classed Team State alone won't grow a program but it can be a carrot to draw kids in.  Still takes a lot of work and dedication from the school, coaches, parents and athletes.

6 hours ago, doctorWrestling said:

The Indiana State Finals are incredible and would hate to see that change but I also understand there are benefits for the smaller schools and the sport should be about the kids and not the fans.  

It should be about both (although more the kids than the adults).  When talking about class wrestling you have to really consider the average kid vs the elite kid (and their families).  If the experience is not enjoyable for the parents of a wrestler then there is less likelihood that the kid will continue to do the necessary things to improve and continue with the sport (notice I said "less likelihood" as there are exceptions to every rule).

As for class wrestling as a whole, I think any argument (for or against) needs to have good comparative (and if possible) historical data. 

Supporters for class wrestling say "it will grow the sport" - has the IHSWCA team duals helped grow 1A and 2A?  If so support your claim with real numbers.

Supporters for single class wrestling say "it will water down the sport" - what has been the response of other states going from single to class?  I am sure at one time all states were single class.  Look at the most similar state (at that point in time) to our state (current point in time) and look at the trends.

Using singular points of data to prove a point rarely are effective (EMD or Fargo results or David Taylor).  These are all outliers and wouldn't show a norm that could be applied to all.  Using EMD you are basically says that all 1A schools are the same as EMD.  That's just not true.

Using National tournaments to suggest class wrestling doesn't prove much because you are talking about the top 1-3% of each state.  Too many other factors and class wrestling isn't likely to change those results.

BTW... I am for class wrestling as long as we can keep our single class state tournament... is that possible??  Have cake, eat cake.

2 hours ago, FCFIGHTER170 said:

This is a problem coaches, parents and athletes need to deal with internally and responsibly..I don't think there's any certain way to nullify cutting across the board..it starts with the proper way of managing your weight and a system with your ppl.. if everybody did their part and looked out for their wrestler it wouldn't be near as bad..we have to get out out the mentality of depriving ourselves in order to have a ill advised never guaranteed advantage.. In MMA fighters are starting to realize that their natural weight and proper strength training will suit them better than cutting to the lower weight.. especially with Welterweights 170 that were cutting to 155.. they started started fighting at 170 and their careers began to skyrocket  at the once thought 2aw too big  they was running from...It doesn't make sense to stunt a kids growth while their naturally growing.. 

Proper dieting, training and clean living will go a long way especially compared to long nights doing damage to their bodies and organs.. I've cut 30 pounds in 6 days in 2007 for a fight and a few other bad cuts led me to realize I was so wrong and being detrimental to my growth and self.. I've never encouraged my guys to be "cutters" and never will. 

I completely agree that the weight cutting problem is only solved by coaches, parents and athletes cause there just isnt a good way to legislate it as some will always find "work arounds".  I also agree with healthy living is the way to go but understand a kid "cutting" (within reason) down a weight class to make the lineup but not hard 15-30 lb cuts.  

1 hour ago, Jimtown 138 said:

What would the purpose be?

Helps prevent kids from cutting a bunch and then replenishing after weigh-ins which is 60-90 mins before wrestling begins.  If you have to weigh-in every time you step on the mat then more likely you are at your natural weight and not cutting.

Coaches do have access but every time an alpha weight gets changed an email goes to IHSAA office. If you do it then they IHSAA will know.  
 

Not sure why a coach would have the access either. Maybe there could be a legitimate reason a coach would need to edit that weight?!?
 

35 minutes ago, Caleb Spires said:

God, I’ve always hated this response so much. You don’t have to be a chef to know your food got burnt. You don’t have to be a dentist to know if something is wrong with your tooth. And you don’t have to be a referee to see a bad call is being made.

 

Edit: This is not to say we need to get on a message board to ridicule refs for every bad call; they’re human, it happens, none of us could get it perfect every time. But you don’t have to be a certified referee to spot bad calls.

Generally I agree with you on the response “well why don’t you just get your license” but getting out on the mat to officiate and seeing how difficult it can be gives you a little more appreciation to the ref. 

Let me start by saying, Indiana officials as a whole are much better than many surrounding states. That’s pretty easy to say going to Regional or National tournaments with officials from multiple states. One of the reasons that Indiana is so good is a very real attempt to be consistent throughout the state however there are some nuances in different areas. The region typically is pretty aggressive with stall calls compared to Indy or down south. It probably appears worse to Indy guys because Indy has soooo many officials (some really good and some newbies) making consistency within Indy a little harder and it just seems too aggressive when you see refs from NW Indiana that call stalling without hesitation. 
 

Good or bad kids and coaches have to adjust and wrestle through it. 

In looking at the results of the CCC, Westfield had 8 wrestlers finish higher in placement to FC 6.  One could assume that Westfield would win 8 of the 14 matches in a dual (with bonus points likely deciding the dual). 
 

Based off of this it makes sense to rank Westfield higher in dual rankings. 
 

Regardless it is great that FC is continuing to build their program.

2 hours ago, bigballerb said:

Can’t stand this, let the kids rep who they want. It causes no harm to have a penn state logo on the side of the kids headgear. I know my complaining won’t change anything but jeez. Glad to see the IHSAA has their priorities in check .

I believe the rule refers to manufacturers logos. Any other decorations just can’t be offensive. Therefore it is my understanding that a Penn State sticker would be ok. 

2 hours ago, gsmith58 said:

I have a small 106 son and so I'm, admittedly, biased and a bit prickly about this. Being that he's in a room(s) year-round, I'd sure like the idea of my son being able to compete against kids 'nearly' his size before he's a senior. This is why I proposed not eliminating this weight class from Frosh or JV events.  Undersized kids who are freshman or sophomores could still compete at the Frosh or JV levels against kids more their size.  

Not that I think it's a swell idea, but couldn't we apply this logic and similar 'generalization' to the heavyweight class? Not really the same because a 106 lb kid can still compete at 113.  A HWT can't compete at 220.  And generally HWT are not under developed underclassmen. 

Think of it this way... suppose there was a proposed rule change to remove 138 and add 95 with the reasoning that we already have 132 and 145 and having a wt class in the middle was too much AND adding 95 would give more opportunities to smaller kids.  Would you be for this change?

These are all big "What Ifs" so not a lot of reality of them happening but the lowest weight class has evolved from 98 to 103 to 106 because kids are getting bigger not smaller. I think kids cut too much weight (not all but some) and maybe this could help.  

16 hours ago, Thor said:

If they’re great, why throw them on jv? Would you rather have guys like Cernus and Cottey on jv? And no, if varsity is the highest level than can one really be great on jv?

So maybe I'm not explaining my view very well.  106 generally has one of the highest forfeit rates.  A lot of schools just try to find any kid who weighs less than 106 (usually a freshman who hasn't started growing yet) to get forfeits.  If we started at 113 and added a weight in the middle or upper weights now that Varsity spot would be filled by a bigger and in a lot of cases a more "varsity" ready athlete.  

And to answer your questions...

If they’re great, why throw them on jv? Not throwing them on JV.  If they are a JV level wrestler then yes they could be great at the JV level (maybe this is a philosophical difference as I don't see greatness measured in Ws and Ls but rather everything else gained from being a wrestler - hard work, dedication, sacrifice, discipline, etc.  You can achieve greatness in these areas without being a state placer or champ).  Putting a 100 lb kid with no muscle tone on varsity seems more like throwing them on varsity rather than throwing them on JV if they are truly JV caliber.

Would you rather have guys like Cernus and Cottey on jv? No. They would most likely be on varsity just at 113.  They could cut less weight and I'm pretty sure they would still be great.  

What I would really rather see is upper classman get more opportunities to be a varsity athlete.  100 lb freshman getting to be a varsity athlete because he is the only one that weighs less than 106 over a junior or senior who is a back up wrestler in the middle or upper weights but is still pretty good.  

4 minutes ago, Thor said:

One your first point, isn’t that part of what makes wrestling so great? It’s available to kids of all grades and all weights. It’s the only sport where someone that weighs 100 lbs can actually contribute and be great.  

Can't they contribute and be great at the freshman level or JV level?  

1. Adopt different weight classes for freshman and JV than Varsity and eliminate Varsity 106 to add a larger weight class.  Zero seniors qualified for Semi-state at 106 this year.  No other sport caters to underclassmen.  New weight class could be in the middle or upper weights just get rid of 106.

2. Adopt college stalling rules for the offensive wrestler.  Hold on a leg for an audible 5 seconds and get called for stalling.

3. Add Fleeing to the Stalling penalty chart (so first stall/flee is warning but second stall/flee is a point - I think this could make it easier on officials to call - not that I agree with getting a warning for fleeing but if it helps it get called more it would help).

4. 4 pt nearfall.  This is awesome at the college level and promotes more activity on the mat.

5. Inbounds - 2 points no matter what.  On feet.  On mat.  In pinning situation.  Those 2 points must be on the mat and can be from either wrestler.  Knee, foot, toe.... doesn't matter.  Any 2 points.

Extreme rule (I dont really think this should happen but...) - Make out of bounds its own penalty chart... if official blows the wrestlers out of bounds its a warning to both wrestlers.... 3 warnings and 4th is double disqualification.  That might make them wrestling in the middle

9 minutes ago, Kookie953 said:

Even more than that what I find amazing about Coach Snyder is he doesnt WANT to see his kids that are in other sports during their other seasons...and they are major contributors to his team.  That takes some discipline on a coaching level.  Now in the offseason and the summer...you need to be committed to whatever it is youre doing and it isn't easy but there is good coordination among all sports.  If it wasn't for a knee injury, Brownsburg's Division 1 RB would be putting on a singlet and contributing. 

Good example, all those wrestlers that are football players go compete in the Disney Duals.  That takes some discipline for the football staff to give up a week in the summer to have almost your entire defensive line gone when every day in the summer is valuable. 

 

When coaches can see how cross training can help their athletes then everyone wins.  A week at Disney Duals wont take away from summer football and probably helps make them better football players.  All it takes is a little communication and working together for a kids to be successful as a multi-sport athlete.  Not gonna say it is easy but coaches working together is a big deal.

And Kudos for Coach Snyder and all the other coaches that promote being a multisport athlete!

14 minutes ago, jetwrestling said:

Like I said size of school does not matter, it is the other opportunities that does. Whether that opportunity is being able to play football and baseball as well or the local wrestling training academy.

Absolutely.... 

Many of the challenges kids have to being great in wrestling happen to coincide with small schools but big schools aren't necessarily immune to challenges.  They are just different challenges.

Ben Davis, Pike and Fishers (3 of the biggest HS in the State) had 3 SQ combined.  Oak Hill, Western, Wawasee, Jimtown all had 3 each.  

All that being said school size is probably the best way to divide schools into classes.  I would just be a bigger supporter of an "all-in" team state tournament series vs changing the individual tournament.